[Axis Campaign] Legacy of Versailles-vanilla v0.3 (11/08/14)

[nikivdd]

Hmmm... So would you agree then that the mod is meant to be played with 1.14 rules? I know I will switch to 1.14 rules, as mod is obviously a gem that would be heavily spoiled by new rules. I mean everything else is perfect in the mod

During the vanilla we had 3 official patches, not so easy to deal with, with such a lengthy development. The new version is designed for v1.21 rules.

I was asked to post the previews of the Italian, British and Japanese ships...so should be coming up in the next couple of days.

[Ceek]

I've finally had some time off and have tried the mod again and am loving it. That said, I have to admit I am confused about how prestige works, too.

I don't know when exactly it started happening, but my prestige-per-turn and actual prestige numbers are way off and it's really starting to affect my ability to survive in the desert. While the scenarios indicate a certain amount of prestige per turn (25, 30, etc.) I am finding I am only getting 30% to 40% of that when my turn actually starts. Is this some sort of modifier to reflect supply conditions in the desert? If so, I must have missed this note in the briefings. Right now I am at the first battle of Alamein and am getting 8 prestige per turn and it's killing me. I was playing at 80% prestige to begin with and according to the scenario I should be getting 28... Any idea what's going on here?

Niki, if it's helpful let me know and I'll go back through my saved games to see where this started. I don't remember it happening in earlier scenarios, but I may be wrong.

I am playing with v.1.22, by the way.

[Ceek]

I went back and looked through my saved games and it looks like I start taking the 60% hit to the stated per-turn prestige number at Gazala. I can manually credit myself the lost prestige, but unless it's a 'design feature' maybe you can fix it in the next version?

[nikivdd]

I think it is a combination of factors. First of all, the mod was made during three official patches, the seize of the core, and the ships being part of the core army. I have a bit the same feeling as with the DLCs. In DLC east i was bulking in prestige and in DLC west i lack prestige most of the times. I was thinking to include in a future update to disable the softcap altogether as the softcap is a bad idea for mods with large core armies.
I hope to notice a difference with the Ultimate version, where core is overal smaller and no core ships whatsoever.

[timek28]

Well yeah core this big and core ships certainly don't go together with soft cap mechanics. I'm glad that somebody else noticed this (Ceek). But i have to disagree with you Ceek on when it starts to happen. In my case it starts to happen right at Norway scenario (bunch of ships added). I start getting only 1/5 of prestige that I should. Also that could be product of the fact that I upgraded all of my tanks (about 11 of them) into Pz III F versions (since I had prestige from Poland).

I found this to be unnaturally low amount of prestige. So I swithced to 1.14 rules in advanced rules. Now I'm about to play Belgium/Netherlands. I started conquering cities and I'm getting around 41 PP for regular hexes, and I guess twice as much for VHs. This still isn't how it should be. Also I should get 35 PP per day, but I'm getting around 28 I think. So it seems there are some kind of prestige modifiers outside the soft cap, but I cannot understand which ones. I just hope the prestige doesn't get to mangled up in process. But for now getting around 80% of what is guaranteed is OK, although I don't understand why it happens. I also noticed this I think in GTPG (under 1.14) in certain scenarios (I think Spain was one of them).

But as a wish, Nikki it would be really nice if you could as you said reduce core size (it's 50 now in Belgium), and throw out ships out of the core. Also if prestige cap is so unpredictable maybe 1.14 is the best way to go (of course if 1.14 would give 100% PP guaranteed not 80%).

[nikivdd]

Thanks for the invaluable input

The auxiliaries and SE units (as i heard they don't count for the softcap) do get a more prominent role. In the first 5 scenarios of the ultimate the number of core units is 1 . The first core unit is an unpurchaseable Befehlspanzer that can only be upgraded (by ingame script) when you raise in rank. Missions 1-5, I regard those as tutorial scenarios to get acquainted with some features that come with the mod. Number of core units depend on the current rank (Leutnant is for example 7 core units, max 10 auxiliaries) and will raise slowly as the player raises in rank; but 50 or more as in the vanilla will not be the case. The value will not be altered whether the player goes for the smaller maps or the big maps (yeah, plenty to chose from). The bigger maps will include more Befehlpanzers (officers) to increase the number of allowed auxiliary units. Auxiliary units are usually regarded as disposable units, cannon fodder, lure... but when you can take them along for a few scenarios, they do have a more important role to play.

[timek28]

Nikki any tips on how to win Dunkerque?

I've been trying several times now, and I'm at least 2-3 turns away from the MV. IMO DV is completely unreachable as there is no way of conquering all hexes and sinking all transports (there are like 20 of them, not to mention destroyers and cruisers). The scenario is really, really tough. I think I had easier time playing Stalingrad in DLC. At least enemy wasn't that concentrated there. Here allied troops occupy every city hex, are entrenched at MAX, and I don't see a weak spot in their defense. To make things worse there is the fortification problem where you take entrenchment off the unit but unless you destroy it it grows back to 4 in the next turn... There is so many AA batteries and artillery backed up by forts that moving through that is a costly slug fest. Don't get me wrong you organized defense perfectly but it is too concentrated, and I'm not sure that it was that tough historically.

I tried to strike hard from the east, with heavy concentration of artillery fire, and strike south since west approach is on canal and that is too costly. On east I posses 8 artillery peaces, with lots of tanks, pioneers and other infantry. Planes bombard here and there since there is heavy concentration of AA guns and I cannot afford to loose planes. On the south I was backed up by 6 artillery and lots of tanks and infantry. However the enemy is so entrenched that even this many artillery (14) doesn't help. I actually bought like 4 artillery just for this scenario. I do break through east and I'm able to conquer 2 eastern VHs but the west are just too far and surrounded by too many units. I'm able to destroy all forts though (maybe that would be more fair MV condition). If I lose here as I do, the campaign ends. Also deployment areas are kind of strange. I cannot form concentrated battle groups in first turn, but I have to scramble around and deploy scattered battle groups.

I just don't know what to do. The lack of Flam tank is a great problem here, and also I think I made a very bad decision by going all PzIII as they lack soft attack. Although PzIVD would get chewed up by enemy artillery pretty badly. I hate 39 and 40 as Germans have very bad tanks. Also I think Sturumpanzer sucks for these kind of scenarios as it has only 4 ammo (I have like 5-6 of them). It seems that 9/6 artillery with 8 rounds is the only way to go. And maybe having more pioneers...

[timek28]

I restarted campaign. I hope to build more balanced core next time, and i will get rid of sturmpanzer altogether. I need ammo capable artillery. Although I already restarted campaign like two times, but this campaign doesn't let you make any mistakes. IMO it is much harder then GTPG.

[nikivdd]

I will look into that mission and go easier on the FlaK. There should be an update of the mod (dots and commas mostly) next month or so.

[timek28]

I will look into that mission and go easier on the FlaK. There should be an update of the mod (dots and commas mostly) next month or so.

Thanks for the help! There sure are many FlaKs in this scenario. I think there are more then 10 of them in scenario, and around 7-8 in the city itself. And most are spaced 2 hexes from each other so to take one, means nothing as the other one fires. I think in one place I saw 3 FlaKs hex to hex. I will try to beat that scenario anyways with better core next time.

Although the only way I can see doing it is by having all 10.5 cm artillery with high range, high ammo. 12.5 cm is good but it doesn't do much larger damage. I'm just learning the pitfalls of SP artillery and their low ammo.

Also having at least few of Panzer IVDs. Will there be a Flamm tank in future?

I think it is doable as some other player reported playing African scenarios.

[Ceek]

OK, my turn to complain again.

First of all, the campaign, in terms of maps, scenarios, gameplay, and event scripting is all off-the-charts fantastic. None of the original Panzer Corps scenarios, with the exception of some of Kerenesky's DLC East Front work, hold a candle to the consistently well designed battles you've put together in Legacy of Versailles, Niki. I particularly love how the major maps allow for ebbs and flows to the battle and make supply and organization of the advance really important as you've got to make sure you can deploy and have the proper order of battle for the many engagements you'll have in a single map. Also, the larger scale makes combined arms all the more important—it's an excellent use of the game engine rules!

OK, now the bad news. The prestige 'bug' is really killing me. I am currently at South Africa, getting 9 prestige and coming off a measly 500 to spread around for 50 units after getting a major (and extremely difficult) victory in East Africa. This can't be close to right, can it? My sturdy little corps was holding it together (just barely) up until now, but after the toll taken on the last map followed immediately by another long offensive across another vast map (combined with the much more powerful allied tanks, massive waves of bombers, and high quality, overstrength aircraft), my little guys are getting blasted into smithereens! I've lost tons of core units this scenario, mainly because I haven't been able to afford a single out-of-class upgrade for my units. That's right, to keep my little guys together, I have precisely zero Tigers or Panthers, and all my infantry, artillery, etc., I supply with raw recruits at all times. It worked through the Great Rift Valley, but it won't cut mustard on the veldt of Sud Afrika!

I recognize I brought a little bit of this on myself by playing with the difficulty settings 90% prestige, 50% experience gain, so I take responsibility for that. But the low-almost-no prestige thing is now definitely limiting my ability to proceed further in the campaign. I will probably just restart the scenario and give myself a magical prestige dump to try to give myself a fighting chance, but I'm curious, Niki, if you could release what you had intended post-scenario prestige bonuses to be so I know how to stay in the ballpark of what you intended? I realize the prestige bug isn't your fault, but if I at least know how you had planned the prestige to be doled out in these scenarios, my cheating won't feel quite so much like... cheating.

Thanks again for the great work on this campaign. It is a real pain (and pleasure) to play though.

[Ceek]

Also, in your 'periods and commas' update, you might also want to adjust the maps for East Africa to better reflect the topography. You have most of Somalia represented with grassland terrain when a quick jaunt to Google Maps shows it is anything but.

Still getting schlacked in South Africa but refusing to give up. This is a bloody, bloody battle. Well designed, as usual!

[timek28]

Hey Ceek

Good to hear someone commenting on LoV besides me. There are maybe lot of people playing, but some more comments would be nice to hear Like you said everything is very well designed, very precise, and nicely put together. It is obvious that much work has been placed in this mod.

But to be honest much playing will also be needed to complete it. I don't know weather I've been a bit saturated by the game or what buy I'm slugging through this campaign despite it's marvelousness. Most of the scenarios are really long and take me at least several hours to complete if I have enough concentration. Also I have to say that I lost my motivation a bit since game is really changing, and player has to be prepared for anything. I already restarted campaign 3 times (this is the last time I swear, I don't have that much time to throw away).

Anyways, the first two tries I didn't have good enough core for Dunkirk. Dunkirk IMO is maybe harder then 3 DLC Stalingrads (albeit shorter). Any tips Ceek (or anyone else), on how to win Dunkirk? I tried to go with many many artillery units (like 14 of them), but I failed since I had several of damned Sturmpanzers which have only 4 ammo. Now I will try pretty much the same thing, only with 10.5 cm towed artillery as they IMO have best ammo/damage ratio. The enemy is heavy entrenched all units at max entrenchment (about 20 or more of them), and every hex is guarded with artillery, forts and FlakS, and it is really hard. Like I said to Nikki (who said he will eventually change Flak number), I doubt it was that difficult historically. I thought allies where in panicking and desperate fight.

Last but not least is the issue of prestige. I found out that 1.14 settings are doing good things for me. I'm getting about what I'm supposed to get - 10 prestige points at some scenarios. There has been definitely some prestige modifiers though. I'm somehow getting prestige for surrenders even on 1.14? I'm not sure weather that is possible by choice of scenario designer? Ceek don't tell me you are playing on 1.14 rules and getting only 9 prestige per day late in campaign? That would be brutal

Although Nikki says that the mod is designed to be played under 1.21, he also says that the development has survived 3 patches so I believe that is the reason why the prestige bugs are happening, and also disclaimer on his side

[Ceek]

I went back and looked at my order of battle for Dunkirk. I had 22 infantry, 10 tanks (Pz38s, Pz IIIs, Pz IVs, and a Char), 6 artillery pieces, a couple recon, an 88, and 10 aircraft (4 fighters, 2 Me 110s, 2 Stukas, 2 He 111s. More artillery would have really helped, but I couldn't afford it, and so spent most of the battle employing a human wave strategy of suppressing, surrounding with infantry and taking turns attacking. Then I'd reinforce w/ raw recruits and slog forward. I would not sacrifice fighters and bombers in these attacks if flak was in range as the cost to prestige to aircraft is just too great and their experience too important in winning initiative battles. When Allied aircraft would attack, and if it looked like my planes would take much damage, I would not attack them, but instead surround them so their zone of movement was limited. They'd usually not counterattack next turn and would be 'trapped' by having units surrounding them on three sides. Then I'd rush over my 88 to nail them before letting three surrounding fighters pick up the pieces. This is the best way to ensure you don't lose strength points against Spitfires. If you take them on one-on-one you will get chewed up pretty quick given they attack in waves.

In terms of taking on Dunkirk itself, I find it easiest to pierce Dunkirk on the eastern approach and concentrate my efforts there while slowly tightening the noose elsewhere. Once you're 'in', your infantry become much more useful in cleaning up the joint. One particular challenge is eliminating the fleeing transports and naval support. The Luftwaffe is really over-committed in this scenario, even with the extra support (who, with their hero bonuses are really helpful, by the way), but I found a good strategy was to alternate ground target priority based on the flak. If there was too much where I wanted to go, I would use that turn to take out naval craft and try to use my ground units to take out the flak. Then next turn I could sweep in w/ the aircraft and allow the ground units to advance. If you repeat that enough times the city will eventually fall.

I agree, this scenario seems way more difficult than it was historically. Just to warn you, trying to take out the Maginot Line in the next scenario is possibly even worse. I just took the minor victory and ignored the objective of destroying the line altogether. The measly prestige bonus is not worth the misery of fighting well entrenched units through wooded and hilly terrain surrounded by massive forts!

[timek28]

Wow... So basically you had twice less artillery then me but your strategy implored sacrifice of infantry... Well I will see, or might try something like that. What I realized is that there is definatelly not enough firepower or turns that can reduce entrenchment to 0 in case of all enemy units. Especially the ones in fortifications. I hate those things as entrenchment grows back every turn to 4. I also find that highly unrealistic, as highly devastated fortifications cannot take only 1 turn to get rebuilt.

I will try going more brute force by infantry, and give some more work to pioneers. As far as transports are concerned I actually don't think of those. There is too much going on in the city itself that sinking transports is completely irrelevant IMO. And I might say your aircraft strategy is interesting. I also came to conclusion that attacking spitfighter head on is very foolish. I let them be, but protect my weak units with my Bf109s. Also I go for the weaker French planes head on. I deal with spitfires from 8.8 or if I have some Sdkfz7/1.

At the end, i had a glance at Maginot line in the Belgium scenario. It looked very nasty, so there is definitely no reason to attack it in the following scenario. I must give props to Nikki for finally depicting some historical things as they probably have been - like the dreaded Maginot Line. No such thing in original PC.

[Ceek]

My lack of artillery wasn't by design—I would have liked a lot more, but I just couldn't afford it! And yes, your infantry will have to take it on the chin in this one, I'm afraid. If you wait for entrenchment to get to zero, it will be a long, hard slog, and you probably won't get very far. That being said, you can still force surrenders with lvl. 1 entrenchment, and I definitely took advantage of that when I could. Because space is so limited in this scenario, you really have to think several turns ahead in terms of where you want key infantry to be to take out the fortifications. You have to have your engineers well placed to take advantage of micro-breakthroughs in the defensive lines. Grenadiers and engineers are extremely important on this map, but they won't help you much unless they're placed correctly to take advantage of their anti-fortification abilities. Also, the fact that there are units in practically every hex when you get to Dunkirk means you get some prestige for forcing surrenders if you plan your attacks correctly. That helps, some.

Regarding aircraft, I have found that if I don't put a priority on air superiority, I pay for it down the line. Letting even fighters pick apart my troops eventually hampers my offensive momentum. That doesn't mean I attack every plane I see immediately. I have found the containment strategy to be very effective in destroying aircraft without taking losses in the air or on the ground. Surrounding airplanes with at least two (preferably three or even four, depending on its strength) is so important for reducing its initiative and counterattack. If you're not doing that, you will pay for it (in prestige) long term.

Again, it's a pretty brutal scenario, especially if you're going for a major victory. If the prestige bug wasn't in effect, it might be worth the effort because Dunkirk is loaded with victory hexes. As it is, I was only getting 1/3rd what I due, which led to problems in later scenarios where my units' lack of experience really began to catch up with me.

Good luck!

[timek28]

My lack of artillery wasn't by design—I would have liked a lot more, but I just couldn't afford it! And yes, your infantry will have to take it on the chin in this one, I'm afraid. If you wait for entrenchment to get to zero, it will be a long, hard slog, and you probably won't get very far. That being said, you can still force surrenders with lvl. 1 entrenchment, and I definitely took advantage of that when I could. Because space is so limited in this scenario, you really have to think several turns ahead in terms of where you want key infantry to be to take out the fortifications. You have to have your engineers well placed to take advantage of micro-breakthroughs in the defensive lines. Grenadiers and engineers are extremely important on this map, but they won't help you much unless they're placed correctly to take advantage of their anti-fortification abilities. Also, the fact that there are units in practically every hex when you get to Dunkirk means you get some prestige for forcing surrenders if you plan your attacks correctly. That helps, some.

I restarted campaign again. After a slogging repeat of 4-5 intro scenarios I got to Dunkirk again, this time I think I am better prepared. I have better core and more prestige. The result however is: SAME! I understand what you are saying about correctly positioning infantry. But that is just not important when AI has most perfect combination of artillery and AA guns behind almost every infantry unit that guards city hexes. Flanking is almost impossible... Also there is actually 10 flak units in the town itself! Not to mention 4 AA guns in very dense area around Grande-Synthe.. I also tried imploring your infantry sacrificing method, that gave me a little push (to a great cost), but ultimately I couldn't conquer it all. It seems that I'm missing 2-3 turns, and if I'm trying to rush things in the last 2-3 turns that creates a blood bath and decimation of my units.

I'm pretty disheartened by scenario design and lack of it reality (this looks more like Sevastopol the Dunkirk) but it is what it is and to progress it has to be won. I also must say that there are too many allied planes IMO considering that briefing says there will be allied planes "here and there and they will attack like mosquitoes, and quickly return back". In fact there are more allied planes then my planes, and they attack with confidence and stay!

Nevertheless, I have 2 new tactics in mind. First of all the small part of the Dunkirk close to the canal is remote Grande-Synthe. It is well guarded and hard to conquer from only one direction. Especially not only from the east or south, and god forbid west. So I came to idea to have a massive para-drop (I have 3 FJs for now, but maybe I will get a fourth one). That is drop all my FJs in front of the most western fort guarding that part of the Dunkirk. I could place them on the rough desert (beach) northwest. From there I will destroy the fort ASAP, and continue by destroying artillery and AA in that remote part.

In the same time I shall push hard from the east (as I did before), and (the new thing) divert almost all western forces across the bridges ASAP to the southern approach of the Grande-Synthe. The Gravilines outskirt could be taken by 3-4 units, without the need for major engagement. So in that way I shall attack from the south with larger force and from north with paratroopers almost at the same time. This simultaneous attack should create breaches on two sectors and problems for the perfectly placed defense of the Grande-Synthe, and should create a nice link with advancing main forces from the east, once they close in.

If this fails I don't know what else I could do. Of course all of this will be very tricky as there is bunch of allied aircraft and also large possibility of naval bombardment from allied cruisers on my paratroopers... Sigh

Regarding aircraft, I have found that if I don't put a priority on air superiority, I pay for it down the line. Letting even fighters pick apart my troops eventually hampers my offensive momentum. That doesn't mean I attack every plane I see immediately. I have found the containment strategy to be very effective in destroying aircraft without taking losses in the air or on the ground. Surrounding airplanes with at least two (preferably three or even four, depending on its strength) is so important for reducing its initiative and counterattack. If you're not doing that, you will pay for it (in prestige) long term.

Yes I know this. It's called mass attack, and I know that air superiority is very important. I have 4 Bf109s in this scenario, but I might need 1 more. I also try to use more flaks here and I bought two mobile Sdkfz7/1 which can come very handy. The problem here is that in the chaos of urban battle it is very hard to follow where all the planes are and weather everything is protected from air attacks and AI exploits that fact to the max. It is much easier forming solid air strategy when in open terrain combat. At least that is my feeling.

Again, it's a pretty brutal scenario, especially if you're going for a major victory. If the prestige bug wasn't in effect, it might be worth the effort because Dunkirk is loaded with victory hexes. As it is, I was only getting 1/3rd what I due, which led to problems in later scenarios where my units' lack of experience really began to catch up with me.
Good luck!

Try 1.14 as I did. It helped me out a lot Prestige is more or less fine now...

On the VHs... Yeah there are many VHs but, in the same time all are heavily guarded, so I spent almost all that I earn on replacements... Sacrificing cannot be the only way to win this.

[timek28]

Nikki and Ceek,

I think I found the reason for weird prestige behavior in the mod. After getting two rail guns in France scenario my prestige gain dropped 2 fold again... I logically concluded that it had to do with the two received rail guns. What is even more astounding is that I play under 1.14 rules which should not impose prestige cap!?

I decided to test this and actually sold 2 rail guns. To my astonishment two guns are worth about 10.000 prestige! I think in GTPG mod these guns where worth (much) less but don't count me on that. Right after I sold them the prestige gain went back to normal. Now this would be perfectly normal condition if I played under 1.20 rules, but I don't understand why this happens under 1.14 as well? It seems that mod settings aren't affected by changed game settings in advanced dialog? Maybe I need to set these options in mod related settings file manually?

As a last resort I might change prestige to 200% or sell my rail guns, but to be honest I think they will be mandatory in some scenarios... I think Nikki didn't intend the prestige to drop this much as a result of very valuable equipment. And Nikki if you did, then maybe it would be nice to tell us that prestige gain will be miserable unless we sell some of the earned equipment despite the risk of needing that equipment later on. This way nobody can guess what is going on with prestige I don't see a point of having rail and battleships while I have a very hard time patching up my basic units from losses, or upgrading them.

I think the whole concept of having rail guns as well as battleships in the core is maybe a little far-fetched. And apparently the sheer value of those units in the core collides with prestige and game mechanics, which is very apparent unfortunately. Beta testers where obviously very good players since they didn't notice the prestige problem

[nikivdd]

You probably found the solution to the problem that kept us all busy for a very long time.
I think it can be easily solved as the mod comes with a somewhat changed e-file. I drastically reduced the price of the railguns and the ships; they will be much cheaper to repair (and upstrength) and they won't weigh (so much) towards the prestige cap.

As my modding commitment is extremely limited for an indefinite period of time, i did manage to alter the e-file, which will be part of the future update. For now it is added to this post as an attachment.
Remember, changes kick in when you start the campaign from scratch, or when you start the next scenario of the campaign (after loading a savegame).

equipment.rar

(27.37 KiB) Downloaded 124 times

(extract in the LoV/Data folder and overwrite)

Secondly, as it was pointed out before, the need was there to make the Dunkirk scenario less Sevastopol like.
Enemy air activity and air defences are reduced significantly and i upped the strength of the auxiliary Ju 87s and the StuG's core freebies. Also a lot of enemy infantry saw their strength reduced to half.

Dunkirk.rar

(7.92 KiB) Downloaded 115 times

(extract in the LoV/Data folder and overwrite)

[Horst]

I also arrived recently in Dunkirk, but had no time to conquer it yet. The beginning of the campaign is somewhat unexciting but battles start to heat up since France now.

About prestige behavior:
I also sometimes noticed strange amounts above regular income from non-victory city flags. What is even stranger, that I use my own equipment and rules file where I've set the SoftCap settings to 434 and 2100 what should not be affected by the prestige bug discovery I've made lately:
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=47170

If you play with the LoV's gamerules.pzdat file and its 200/800 prestige settings, it's possible that you can get a lot more than 100% prestige as you can read in my topic above. Capital ships cost about 1600-2000 in vanilla (mine is slightly lower) what could raise the average prestige value above the 800, especially if you overstrength them additionally.
Well, if someone plays with 1.14 rules without soft cap settings, then I don't have any good explanation for that either. Too many units at same time maybe? I'll keep my eyes open and will watch the prestige gain more carefully in the future.

PS: Ah thanks, Niki! Going to reload the Dunkirk scenario next time I play on with your campaign.