A mod for Logistics

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Grimwar
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A mod for Logistics

Post by Grimwar » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:59 am

Hello all,
Being new here i am wondering if a complete transtport mod or if intered in an other mod, a basic standard for the transtport of troops, and that also of light, medium and heavy equipement has or is being done.

If not i wish to give it a try, and i hope of help from the members from this kind and established community.

Ok down to the niti-grity, Why a Logistical mod. Why not call it a Transport mod.
Logistics is not tactics, it's not about moving troops about a battle field, what it is about as in PC is getting your troops to the battle field.

As of the 1.11 patch we have 32 transport types inculing the 4 basic and i guess thats per nation?

I hate when all are lumped in to the SdKfz 251 ish transport, tranporting a heavy 88 and 15 cm sFH 18 arround at high speeds is unreal to me.

As far as i understand as long as 1 common factor is imployed any unit can use it and also i guess its also taged as a transport type for land.

What do ye think?
i will need imput on transport types and their equivelant armour and attack,
And good modles as i have no idea on how to make them, best i can is copy from clip to paint, i am realy bad.

Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war

Grimwar

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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by El_Condoro » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:38 am

It can only be done in a limited way. You can't tie a specific equipment to a specific transport, for example. (You can, but only if there is only one equipment with "heavypull" and only one transport with a "heavypull" trait - unlikely you want that).

These seem to be the key elements in the data\equipment.pzeqp file:
- must have an appropriate availability date (I'll start with the obvious!)
- the ground transport unit class is 14
- the unit to be transported can have the trait "heavypull" or "land" (there is also "glider", "sea" and "rail") in the "Usable transports" column
- the transport unit doesn't need an entry in the "Transport category" column unless it is "heavypull" (to match it to the type of unit that has the same trait in its usable transport column.

So there is some customisation but not a lot.

ThvN
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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by ThvN » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:21 am

Hello Grimwar, welcome to the forums. I see El_Condoro has already explained the basic modding options, and these are somewhat limited (I believe the max nr. of transport classes that you mentioned is the total number in the equipment file, so this includes all nations). There are already mods and models floating around for a lot of stuff, see viewtopic.php?f=147&t=39054, but I'm not sure what you are looking for exactly. I know guille1434 and Bebro have made several icons for transport units, not sure about the rest.

I have been working (verrrryy slowly) on some icons myself, mostly icons for switchable AAA units, and I'm currently playing around with a modded eqp-file with a couple of switchable units to see if I can think of some good stats for them. But I also have a keen interest in a more diverse set of transport units, and have already started to collect information, pictures and have been picking at some of the existing icon files. I have even collected a bunch of info on the German railway system, and already made a rough flatcar model for guille1434.

So in a way I'm working on something that could become the start of a logistics mod, but it will take me forever to finish anything. Simply because I work extremely slowly due to other activities, and only when I want to. But I can provide tons of information, since I tend to do a lot of research for even the most basic stuff. It is surprisingly hard to find reliable info on very common things like trucks and halftracks, so if you need anything specific, let me know. I might already have come across what you want to know, which could save you a lot of time.

BTW, one idea that I want to test someday is to see if switchable transports are possible. What I mean by that is creating a unit, say a heavy artillery piece, and make it switchable. But it switches into it's 'transport' mode, so it becomes a heavy halftrack or similar. Move the halftrack around, and at the start of the next turn switch it again to get the heavy artillery. But I'm not sure if the game engine can handle this, especially the AI might not be able to use this feature correctly.

If it can be made to work it does have certain benefits though, because making all kinds of specialized heavy-duty transport units will otherwise quickly eat away the max unit allowance, and you can tailor these units to exact requirements. A unit will not be able to fire and move in transport mode on the same turn, and has to be manually switched back to fire, but for very heavy equipment this might even be more realistic than the normal transport system. This option might be worth investigating if you bump into the limit of allowable transports.

Razz1
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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by Razz1 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:32 am

Everything is already done in the AT and AA Mod.

Check it out.

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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by El_Condoro » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:18 am

ThvN wrote:BTW, one idea that I want to test someday is to see if switchable transports are possible. What I mean by that is creating a unit, say a heavy artillery piece, and make it switchable. But it switches into it's 'transport' mode, so it becomes a heavy halftrack or similar. Move the halftrack around, and at the start of the next turn switch it again to get the heavy artillery. But I'm not sure if the game engine can handle this, especially the AI might not be able to use this feature correctly.
Yes, it can be done. I did it with Corps Artillery in Maelstrom. Also with infantry in half-tracks. Pretty much exactly as you describe.

ThvN
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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by ThvN » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:32 am

El_Condoro wrote:I did it with Corps Artillery in Maelstrom. Also with infantry in half-tracks. Pretty much exactly as you describe.
Cool. Does the AI have any trouble with it? I'm testing AI use of switchable AAA units in the DLC campaigns, I thought it performed rather poorly, hence why I'm still tweaking stats. Maybe I am missing something. Thanks for the info, anyway.

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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by El_Condoro » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:02 am

Ah, there's the kicker - my switchables are for the player. Although, the AI seems to use AA/AT switching pretty well.

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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by McGuba » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:16 pm

Hi Grimwar,

Your transport mod idea is absolutely possible to make, I suggest modding the stock e-file so that other modders can use parts of it for custom e-files later. However, as you noted correctly there might be a limit of 32 to the maximum number of transport categories as Rudankort wrote earlier somewhere:
You are free to add new transport categories at will. Just keep in mind that the total number of different transport categories used in the eqp file should not exceed 32. This number includes the 4 default categories (land/sea/air/rail) too.
I suppose the new v1.1 transport category "glider" is +1 so there should be 27 empty transports category slots. I do not know why we have this restriction at the moment maybe something in the code, the program uses two hexadecimal numbers (16+16=32) to store the transport categories or something like that.

Anyway, remember we are talking about transport categories and not actual land transport units. Thus several transport units can share the same transport category like the "heavypull" in v1.1. (Actually the SdKfz 7, the heavypull of PC, was called SdKfz 7 mittlerer Zugkraftwagen (8t) ~ medium tractor vehicle, and there was another medium halftrack in use, the SdKfz 6 (5t), and the real heavy pulls were the SdKfz 8 (12t) and the SdKfz 9 "Famo" (18t) and these are still missing. These could be added with no problem if you have their icons, and attach them to their corresponding land units.)

Here you can find my explanation how to add specific transports to any given unit:

http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=37739

In the Hungarian mod the Hungarian army currently uses 8 different land transports, each with different icon, stats, etc. I also added 7 new transports to the Soviets in addition to the existing two (GMC truck and M3 halftrack). I also hate when everything is "lumped" in the same thing so there are slow moving heavy tractors for the heavy stuff and lighter trucks for motorised infantry and such, as historically. Some land units can have several land transports, others can have only one, and a few cannot have any at all. I also added horse transport to all sides as it was quite common even in the mighty Wehrmacht. It is all working fine so far with no problem. In the first page of this topic I explain the new system of transports somewhere in the middle:

http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=36969

I you want to make your "transport mod" feel free to use the Soviet or Hungarian transport unit icons from the Hungarian mod and then you "only" :wink: have to obtain the German/Western Allied transports.
ImageImage
slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=47985
slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=147&t=36969

RobertCL
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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by RobertCL » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:37 am

Hi,

Just a question: how do we use the glider (available from 1943) in latest Slitherine e-file 1.11 ?
Air transport of light tanks or AT ?`
Because paratroopers are still moved by JU52.

Yes modding the Slitherine e-file is the way to go.

Grimwar
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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by Grimwar » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:27 am

Hello all,

Sorry about the delay. Being having internet-connection problems, well i and my brother live next door (about 100m as the crow flies in the country or as known in USA the sticks) we share the same provider service and this week i had to buy a 4 way port to solve my connection problems.

I,am surprized there has been a lot of thoughtfull and genuine replys, and how to achive a idea of the Logistics mod.
I'll first start with a link to a film clip from the German War Files-Miltary Vehicles[/url] and try to make sence, well at least to me, to the reply's.
Can't even post a link?
El_Condoro wrote:It can only be done in a limited way. You can't tie a specific equipment to a specific
transport, for example. (You can, but only if there is only one equipment with "heavypull" and only one transport
with a "heavypull" trait - unlikely you want that).
But that's exactly what i want. ie: "heavypull" can be specific equipment to a specific unit as in patch 1.11 and
:therefore allowing, i think up to 32 types.
The name dosen't matter, ie; "heavypull" can be "heavy-halftrack" or "light inf-truck" or "med load (medium Arty, anti-tank etc)
A ground transport unit (class 14) ( lets say a half truck type ) with the trait [[sea rail glider] [light-inf, light-arty, light-AT]]
The equipment.pzeqp, is for a half-truck the Maultier, which i found in the forms here the (Maultier.png)
#2017 Maultier 14 60 4 80 7 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 6 0 0 0 Maultier.png 01.01.1942 01.01.1946 1 sea rail glider

Transport types are as sea rail glider if expanded to include sea rail glider light-inf light-arty light-AT
And if a light inf unit has the sea rail glider light-inf transport tag it can use the Maultier, and by use of the light-inf will exculde the Maultier from all other ground units, (SdKfz 7 for example) to a specif type of unit which has the light-inf.
El_Condoro wrote:These seem to be the key elements in the data\equipment.pzeqp file:
- must have an appropriate availability date (I'll start with the obvious!)
- the ground transport unit class is 14
- the unit to be transported can have the trait "heavypull" or "land" (there is also "glider", "sea" and "rail") in the

"Usable transports" column
- the transport unit doesn't need an entry in the "Transport category" column unless it is "heavypull" (to match it to the type of unit that has the same trait in its usable transport column.

So there is some customisation but not a lot.
El_Condoro wrote:So there is some customisation but not a lot.
El_Condoro how do you define not a lot?
Not to many transports .png?

Hi ThvN,
I thankyou for your kind and helpfull post, switchable AAA units is a must for the German's as they often used any optimal equipment.
Like you i'am looking at switchable AAA units, but i'am having trouble with the efx.pzdat, i am unable to give my AAA units the ground attack animations, while shooting at ground units in their switched ground state.
Razz1 wrote:Everything is already done in the AT and AA Mod.

Check it out.
I did and i played it to Overlord, and also i used your transports as a guide, but i thought some transports were to limited or more could be incorperted.
Bye the way a few CTD were incured, had to change the a few unit .png names.

RobertCL
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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by RobertCL » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:33 am

Just a question: how do we use the glider (available from 1943) in latest Slitherine e-file 1.11 ?
Could someone answer please ?

I never managed to get an answer from anyone about this...

Grimwar
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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by Grimwar » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:30 am

RobertCL wrote:
Just a question: how do we use the glider (available from 1943) in latest Slitherine e-file 1.11 ?
Could someone answer please ?

I never managed to get an answer from anyone about this...
A glider can transport any unit that has the the glider tag and available by date and also available in the scnarino or campain.
A Tiger tank if on a airfield and hasen't moved or fired may be able to require the transport tag, it's the bottom left icon on the unit action panell.
A mouse over of the unit panell icon will give a list of transports avaible.

Park your unit on an airfield, have no action for 1 turn, and if a glider is avaible, hop on and fly.

RobertCL
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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by RobertCL » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:52 am

Thx a lot!

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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by Chris10 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:46 pm

There is no way to tell a unit which transport to use if there are various transports assigend in the eqp-file nor can it be modded cause these functions would have to be coded into the executable.
As by now transport will start with the first in list and only once it runs out of the first transport available it will use the next...
Example: Glider, Air
Any unit on an airfiled will use whatever transport is mentioned first (Glider in this case) and until the max number established for that particular transport type is in use and only then use the air transport.

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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by Razz1 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:57 am

Correct, except Air is listed before Glider so the AI will choose an air transport first.

So in scenario design you pick one or the other or both.

RobertCL
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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by RobertCL » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:53 am

Correct, except Air is listed before Glider so the AI will choose an air transport first
So the glider is totally useless because human player could never use it against computer if Glider mode is never shown... Am I wrong ?
So Glider is useful for scenarios designed in such a way that this is foreseen right from the start in the multiplayer scenario (humans vs humans).

I put a Tiger in 1944 on an airfield, he did not move during one turn, I have never seen the glider option...

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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by Grimwar » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:14 am

Hello All,
Chris10 wrote:There is no way to tell a unit which transport to use if there are various transports assigend in the eqp-file nor can it be modded cause these functions would have to be coded into the executable.
As by now transport will start with the first in list and only once it runs out of the first transport available it will use the next...
Example: Glider, Air
Any unit on an airfiled will use whatever transport is mentioned first (Glider in this case) and until the max number established for that particular transport type is in use and only then use the air transport.
True, but also not true for alot of heavy equipment. Most heavy German equipment ie; Tanks, heavy artilary etc, have the Glider as a transport and do not have the Air transport tag. So therefore can only use a Glider if it's avaible and not the Ju 52.
But also most Heavy German equipment can-not use the DFS 230 Glider, for the DFS 230 while being classified as a Glider, it does not have the glider tag in the Transport Category line. Actualy i can see no unit that may use the DFS 230 Glider as the Me 323 Gigant has the glider tag in the Transport Category, which will exclude the the DFS 230 from units who have the glider tag in the Usable Transports coloum.

The Me 323 Gigant is also a Glider and will un-like the DFS 230 transport any unit with the Glider tag in the Usable Transports coloum, as it also has the glider tag in the Transport Category, well it's, air glider

To mod the DFS 230 as a light usable glider for light equipment in the equipment.pzeqp, a new tag in the Transport Category light-glider, (just an idea?) can be added to the DFS 230 line. Any unit that you wish use this glider, put the light-glider tag in the Usable Transports coloum.
ie; the Gebirgsjäger has land sea rail air glider and if changed to include land sea rail air light-glider glider, will use a Ju 52 1st if avaible, then next the DFS 230 if avaible and last a Me 323 Gigant if avaible, as an air transport.

You can also change the priority of the air transports, as in the example of the modded Gebirgsjäger land sea rail air light-glider glider, if changed to land sea rail light-glider glider air, it will use a DFS 230, the Me 323 Gigant and the Ju 52 in this order subject to avaiblety.

Now the Ju 52 has no tags in it's Usable Transports, but i guess unlike the DFS 230 it's hard coded in the .exe, so it can transport any unit with the air Transport Category and that's why the Me 323 Gigant has air included in it's Transport Category.
RobertCL wrote:So the glider is totally useless because human player could never use it against computer if Glider mode is never shown... Am I wrong ?
So Glider is useful for scenarios designed in such a way that this is foreseen right from the start in the multiplayer scenario (humans vs humans).

I put a Tiger in 1944 on an airfield, he did not move during one turn, I have never seen the glider option...

In your example and the date is 1944, then i guess the Me 323 Gigant is not avaible in this scenario, as the Me 323 Gigant will transport the Tiger.
If you think i'am mad or you just are unsure if you are using the air transport mechanics right, you can thy this.

Warning Spoiler
Open the scenario in the ScenarioEditor.exe, well it's not to much of a Spoiler as it open's in the top-left part of the map and aslong as no major enemy units are there, and you do not explore the map.
In the edit tab, click on Scenario Params... Then look in the Transport tab, in here are avaible transports and how manny. Please see above if the DFS 230 is listed as a glider, as you can not use it to transport a Tiger.

I hope RobertCL what i wrote is correct and a help to you in under standing the air transport system and some help in moddeling the equipment.pzeqp to suite your logistical requiremts.

You also may have to edit the scenario in the ScenarioEditor.exe, to increase the avaible transports. And! as your there may aswell add several airfields in the deployment zones, so you can get your heavy armour UP UP and :shock: glide away. :mrgreen:

Grimwar.

Also a thanks to "petirouge" for a quick admim change of a typo be me.

RobertCL
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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by RobertCL » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:03 am

Well I am playing the DLC versus the computer.
Glider is available from 1943 and I never managed to use it in game.
I do not want to open DLC scenarios to see how they were designed.
The Slitherine e-file includes the Glider but no way to use it, that's all I wanted to say.

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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by Tarrak » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:42 pm

RobertCL wrote:Well I am playing the DLC versus the computer.
Glider is available from 1943 and I never managed to use it in game.
I do not want to open DLC scenarios to see how they were designed.
The Slitherine e-file includes the Glider but no way to use it, that's all I wanted to say.
The glider concept was introduced in the AK expansion. The DLC's, at least the eastern branch of them was designed before. This is probably the reason why gliders are not available in them.

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Re: A mod for Logistics

Post by Chris10 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:23 pm

Transport type/class is generic and not hardcoded anymore (the corresponding datatype has been changed to "string" in the exe). It only checks for the correct spelling...only the rules under which the system works is fixed hardcoded...
You can add up to 32 subtransport classes of your choice but you never can choose or tell a unit which specific transport to use except you have one specific transport for each unit but then you run into the edito problem which only has 5 transport slots for each side...
So if you wanna have rail and sea transportsd available you are left with only 3 different air transport types you can assign...

Btw...making tanks using air transport is preposterous. A DFS 230 could carry 1.5 t...a JU-52 could not carry more..also only 1.5 t
A ME-323 Gigant (not glider) could carry a max overload of 22t...
So theoretically 2 Pz-II and end of story but they never have been used to carry tanks but other heavy equipment as recon-cars, command vehicles, ammunition etc....practically I see it as impossible to load even a single Pz-II tank (let alone 2 cuase of size) due to an imbalance of weight distribution in the plane as a tank would make pressure on the structure in a very limited area...
A Pz-III would already have been to heavy (theoreticall) with 23t empty weight

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