Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

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McGuba
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by McGuba » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:54 pm

Thanks for considering the prestige issue. I understand what you're saying about the limited AI scripting, it's just I think it might make the game more interesting if the player has to weigh the reward versus the risk of trying to hold a city like Rome. Yes there are lots of cities like Rome in Europe, but Rome is the only one that was a partner in the Pact of Steel which IMO gives it special significance. Trying to hold it would certainly pose a risk to the troops involved but the 'prestige' of keeping a primary ally in the game might outweigh the risk.
So I managed to free up an AI zone that I could use for such a script, because I like this thinking. Currently the prestige system looks like this:

- Axis gets 250 prestige points each turn as a basis,
- 100 pp/turn for Ploiesti oil field in Romania (as long as it is held), and 100 more for each oil field taken (if any at all)
- from early 1942 100 extra pp/turn added after Speer's appointment to Minister of Armaments and War Production
- another extra 100 pp/turn added from 1943 as German economy is finally fully geared to war production

The latter two are mainly needed as unit cost are rising - reinforcing a Panther costs considerably more than a Pz.III for instance.

- large amount of prestige (between 1500-5000) is awarded for the capture of certain key objectives such as Moscow or Malta, or for whole areas like Caucasus or England. I could only make it as these areas have their own assined zone anyway, for gameplay (battle scripting) reason. So I cannot really add more, even though I would like to.
- Axis also gets 50 prestige points (up to a maximum of 250) for each naval unit which ends its turn on the North Atlantic convoy routes.
It might appear to be a bit too much, especially compared to the above numbers, but I think the importance of the Battle of the Atlantic should not be underestimated, the U-boat peril being "the only thing that ever really frightened" Churchill in WW2. Also, while ground units can make money by taking victory objective cities, naval units cannot do the same. And because of the high prestige reward, the player is forced to use (and eventually lose) the U-boats where they were used (and lost) historically. Otherwise the player would just save them to repel the D-day landings, for example. While during the "happy times" U-boats will truly make a small fortune for the player, from mid 1943 they will be lucky to reach their area of operation in one piece, as historically. So, the available prestige per turn starts to plummet, and at this point the player has to make another decision: whether to send out the U-boats in the hope that they will somehow reach the convoy zone and generate some prestige before they are sunk or save them for D-day. Just as Dönitz, who knew that he is sending the crews to their (almost) certain death, but had little choice. New U-boats were rolling out from the factories and the green crews were ready for service, so he had to do something with them. And the propaganda machine was expecting the continued successes of the U-boats, which were the only way to strike back at the Allies who, by that time, were busy ruining German cities to ground level.


So, my idea is to leave this system as it is, as it has been tested to late 1944 and it seems to work as intended, but I could make the basic 250 prestige per turn to be based on the possession of certain important Axis cities to make them worth fighting for.

Thus, as you suggested Rome would bring e.g. 50 prestige each turn as long as owned by Axis, so as Budapest and Bucharest, being the other important Axis members, and maybe Paris as well. Or, Rome could bring 100 and the rest 50, I am not sure about the list, so some suggestions would be welcome here. I am really puzzled now, and do not know how to list the cities. The point is that the added value should not exceed this 250. And I would not include the main German cities as holding them is a condition for a victory or even for a draw, so they have to be held anyway.
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LandMarine47
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by LandMarine47 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:06 am

Another Marginal Victory should be capturing London. Also what is the Germans capture the Oil Fields should they win Stalingrad or attack through Africa? That should also count as some kind of victory, or the Soviet steam roller won't be birthed :lol: holding Africa should be its own achievement as well, such as Italians getting more prestige or something

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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by Sparatacus » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:34 am

Nice scenario this looks fantastic can't wait to try it :D

Has someone figured out weather zones? just curious!

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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:23 am

Strategic Command 2 has a good weather zone set-up. Hopefully this will make it over to PzC - War of the World would make a lot more sense with weather!

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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by iceFlame » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:54 am

McGuba wrote:So I managed to free up an AI zone that I could use for such a script, because I like this thinking.
Awesome! I really think this will help make the mod even better. :D
Currently the prestige system looks like this:

- Axis gets 250 prestige points each turn as a basis,
- 100 pp/turn for Ploiesti oil field in Romania (as long as it is held), and 100 more for each oil field taken (if any at all)
- from early 1942 100 extra pp/turn added after Speer's appointment to Minister of Armaments and War Production
- another extra 100 pp/turn added from 1943 as German economy is finally fully geared to war production

The latter two are mainly needed as unit cost are rising - reinforcing a Panther costs considerably more than a Pz.III for instance.

- large amount of prestige (between 1500-5000) is awarded for the capture of certain key objectives such as Moscow or Malta, or for whole areas like Caucasus or England. I could only make it as these areas have their own assined zone anyway, for gameplay (battle scripting) reason. So I cannot really add more, even though I would like to.
- Axis also gets 50 prestige points (up to a maximum of 250) for each naval unit which ends its turn on the North Atlantic convoy routes.
This looks really good. I especially like the bonuses for Speer as Armaments minister and the mobilization of the German economy for total war. Actually, I like all of it. The bonuses for Moscow and Malta are also excellent and taking the convoy routes into consideration is IMO a terrific step forward.
It might appear to be a bit too much, especially compared to the above numbers, but I think the importance of the Battle of the Atlantic should not be underestimated, the U-boat peril being "the only thing that ever really frightened" Churchill in WW2.
Couldn't agree more about your assessment of the U-boat peril. This is an area that is often overlooked, which is why I am especially delighted that you have factored it into the equation. Great work!
Also, while ground units can make money by taking victory objective cities, naval units cannot do the same. And because of the high prestige reward, the player is forced to use (and eventually lose) the U-boats where they were used (and lost) historically. Otherwise the player would just save them to repel the D-day landings, for example. While during the "happy times" U-boats will truly make a small fortune for the player, from mid 1943 they will be lucky to reach their area of operation in one piece, as historically. So, the available prestige per turn starts to plummet, and at this point the player has to make another decision: whether to send out the U-boats in the hope that they will somehow reach the convoy zone and generate some prestige before they are sunk or save them for D-day. Just as Dönitz, who knew that he is sending the crews to their (almost) certain death, but had little choice. New U-boats were rolling out from the factories and the green crews were ready for service, so he had to do something with them. And the propaganda machine was expecting the continued successes of the U-boats, which were the only way to strike back at the Allies who, by that time, were busy ruining German cities to ground level.
I like your thinking here too. The public pressure to 'strike back' was significant and I do think it led Donitz to act against his better judgment. But the really exciting thing here is the possibilities it opens up for the player. As they say, no risk no reward, so if the player opts to adopt a turtle position and save the boats for D-day, he risks the loss of long term prestige which could come back to haunt him. Makes for some interesting strategic decisions.
So, my idea is to leave this system as it is, as it has been tested to late 1944 and it seems to work as intended, but I could make the basic 250 prestige per turn to be based on the possession of certain important Axis cities to make them worth fighting for.
Sorry to agree with everything :wink:, but I really like where you're going with this. The key IMO, is as you say, making the Axis cities worth fighting for. This should also lead to a richer and more re-playable game as the player will be faced with more of the actual choices faced by the antagonists.
Thus, as you suggested Rome would bring e.g. 50 prestige each turn as long as owned by Axis, so as Budapest and Bucharest, being the other important Axis members, and maybe Paris as well. Or, Rome could bring 100 and the rest 50, I am not sure about the list, so some suggestions would be welcome here. I am really puzzled now, and do not know how to list the cities. The point is that the added value should not exceed this 250. And I would not include the main German cities as holding them is a condition for a victory or even for a draw, so they have to be held anyway.
I'd like to make a few suggestions here, in the hope that it might help piecing the puzzle together a bit. :)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me the question of 'prestige' is a bit of a double-edged sword. On the one hand it constitutes resources and production value for new units and replacements, while on the other it holds a psychological value in terms of morale and public perception. Both of these co-exist at the same time, which makes it tricky to try and pin the relative values down.

If we were to assign more weight to the first meaning of prestige, then Bucharest and Budapest should likely hold greater value than Rome or Paris. Whereas, if we favor the second meaning the opposite would likely be true.

As I suggested in my previous post, Rome's production capability is not what really makes it significant, but rather what it represents in terms of whether the Axis is perceived as alive and well or on it's last legs.

In this regard, (and in keeping with your cap of 250 points to maintain game balance), I would suggest Rome and Bucharest at 75 points each with Budapest and Paris at 50 each. I say this because I consider Rome (as Berlin's pact partner) and the Ploesti oilfields to have the greatest overall significance.

That being said, I do not underestimate the importance of Paris as a symbol of Axis success and Budapest is certainly important as the last ally standing.

So the other option to consider is perhaps an equal four way split of 62.5 points each? Just thinking out loud here... :)
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McGuba
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by McGuba » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:09 am

LandMarine wrote:
Another Marginal Victory should be capturing London.
As I wrote earlier the condition for a (Marginal) Victory is either the defeat of the USSR OR the British - the latter means control of England (the British Isle), North Africa, Malta and the Middle East. And the player also has to repel the Americans in Tunisia. Capturing only London would be far too easy compared to the total defeat of the USSR, as it could be done as early as in 1942. Also, the British are quite stubborn people (no offense here) IMO, I know that because I lived there for some years, so I think they would have continued to fight from the colonies, even after the loss of their Island (just as many of the French and Polish continued figth after the loss of their country, for instance). Even if not, gameplaywise, in this way defeating the two main adverseries is about same difficult. And the player has the choice who to go against in the first place.

Also what is the Germans capture the Oil Fields should they win Stalingrad or attack through Africa? That should also count as some kind of victory, or the Soviet steam roller won't be birthed :lol:
This is a good question, and has to be answered by the player. If the player manages to capture (and hold!) the Caucasus oil fields, the Soviets will get considerably less reinfocements between 1943-45 and the player will get 200 extra presige each turn. This may make allow him to capture the rest of the Soviet cities in that period. If the player also manages to grab the Middle East oil fields from the British, he will get even more prestige, and the British will get less reinforcements from that time.

holding Africa should be its own achievement as well, such as Italians getting more prestige or something
Sure, the possibilities are virtually endless, but the thing is that PzC editor only allows 5 possible outcomes. Currently it looks like this:

- Total victory (theoretical possiblity only I guess, at least without cheating)
- Victory by defeat of USSR
- Victory by defeat of UK
- Draw (holding all German cities in turn 99)
- Loss

So which one to remove, to make place for another one? Though total victoriy could be removed, I would leave it in as historically it was the major motive of the Germans, and who knows, some superhuman may come and find a solution how to achieve it. Also, there might be some guys out there, who, unlike me, do not mind cheating and will want to go for it by entering some prestige cheat...
talians getting more prestige or something
Italians do not have their own budget. There is only one budget: the Axis one. The player can purchase equipment from (almost) any Axis countries, given that he is under the 250 unit core cap.


Sparatacus wrote:
Nice scenario this looks fantastic can't wait to try it
Hello, and welcome!

This campaing was heavily influenced by your earlier Epic 1941 scenario, so it is me who has to thank you for making it in the first place. :D

Has someone figured out weather zones? just curious!
I do not think so, but I found a work-around solution, which I wrote about in the previous page. In short: snow will not be visible in the African theatre (achieved by the change of the tiles), and the rivers there like the Nile will not freeze during winter (achieved by the change of tiles and the terrain type: strait instead of river).


Iceflame wrote:
The bonuses for Moscow and Malta are also excellent and taking the convoy routes into consideration is IMO a terrific step forward.
Currently the followig bonuses are rewarded:

- for the capture of England: 5000
- for North Africa and the Middle East: 3000
- for Malta: 1500

- for the USSR (excluding the Caucasus): 5000
- for the Caucasus: 2000
- for Leningrad: 1500
- for Moscow: 3000

It might not be final, though. The player gets a bit more for the Soviet objectives, in general, but I think it is somewhat harder to defeat it, anyway. And it is possible to combine the bonuses, e.g. in my current test play I could take Moscow, Leningrad and Malta. As I wrote earlier I could not really add more than this, even though I would like to, as I ran out of free AI zones.

I like your thinking here too. The public pressure to 'strike back' was significant and I do think it led Donitz to act against his better judgment. But the really exciting thing here is the possibilities it opens up for the player. As they say, no risk no reward, so if the player opts to adopt a turtle position and save the boats for D-day, he risks the loss of long term prestige which could come back to haunt him. Makes for some interesting strategic decisions.
Absolutely. This is what this campaign is all about. Total freedom in how the player uses the available assets of war. However, this might be the downside as well. While playing I often had the feeling, all right, so, what should I do now? Sometimes it is hard when nobody ones tells us what to do.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me the question of 'prestige' is a bit of a double-edged sword. On the one hand it constitutes resources and production value for new units and replacements, while on the other it holds a psychological value in terms of morale and public perception. Both of these co-exist at the same time, which makes it tricky to try and pin the relative values down.
Exactly. In this mod 'prestige' really means prestige and not just 'money' or 'industrial output', however, all of these are essentially part of it. And I think it would be impossible to value 'public moral' against 'war economy output' or 'available funds in the budget' as all are very important for winning a war. Just look at the example of Vietnam. Since in PzC we only have 'prestige' it has to represent all of these, like it or not. (Even Warcraft was more 'historically accurate' in this sense as there was gold, wood and metal as resource if I remember well...)

I would suggest Rome and Bucharest at 75 points each with Budapest and Paris at 50 each. I say this because I consider Rome (as Berlin's pact partner) and the Ploesti oilfields to have the greatest overall significance.

That being said, I do not underestimate the importance of Paris as a symbol of Axis success and Budapest is certainly important as the last ally standing.

So the other option to consider is perhaps an equal four way split of 62.5 points each? Just thinking out loud here...
Problem is that since we are talking about one zone I can only add the same value for each city hex. I could only add 100 to Rome and 50 to the rest by adding two city hexes to Rome each worth 50. So in this case I tend to go for adding sixty-something to all four, unless you have an idea for a fifth city to add to the list.
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:13 am

It shouldn't take a superhuman to destroy all of Europe. In War of the World I had the UK dead in 1940, Russia in '42, and India in '44. I was at the gates of Vancouver by April '45 (though it took 14 months to brake in). Japan had little influence on everything except the Pacific Ocean directly (and Eastern India!)

Great to see it's progressing well. Who will be releasing theirs first - my WWI or this? (WWI is looking at March 15)

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McGuba
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by McGuba » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:25 am

It shouldn't take a superhuman to destroy all of Europe.
All right, I tend to accept it. A super-volcano would do as well...


Great to see it's progressing well. Who will be releasing theirs first - my WWI or this? (WWI is looking at March 15)
I do not know, but what I know for sure is that this is not a competition. :wink:

LandMarine wrote:
holding Africa should be its own achievement as well, such as Italians getting more prestige or something
On a second thought, I think Tunis could be added to the list of cities 'worth fighting for' as its loss will trigger the Allied landings in Italy and Sicily. Also, it would make the player reconsider the possiblity of evacuating Africa early on, to use those troops agianst the USSR.
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:31 am

McGuba wrote:I do not know, but what I know for sure is that this is not a competition. :wink:
Still interesting to see what happens - first release will probably get the cream of the players!

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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by hs1611 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:57 pm

BiteNibbleChomp wrote:
McGuba wrote:I do not know, but what I know for sure is that this is not a competition. :wink:
Still interesting to see what happens - first release will probably get the cream of the players!

- BNC
Not really, I'm planning on playing both.

Then again, I guess it's possible that I'm not what you would consider "the cream of the players!"
More likely "the dregs"...

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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by LandMarine47 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:10 pm

Say you take Eygpt and cut off the Suez Canal, wouldn't that stop prestige from this theatre all together? Other objectives like the Middle East and Gibraltar should have this same effect (taking Gibraltar would be desvestating to the Allies)

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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by oasis22 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:19 pm

Hi Mcguba,

Looking forward to playing your MOD.
McGuba wrote: On a second thought, I think Tunis could be added to the list of cities 'worth fighting for' as its loss will trigger the Allied landings in Italy and Sicily. Also, it would make the player reconsider the possiblity of evacuating Africa early on, to use those troops agianst the USSR.
Don't you think if somehow the Axis get a hold of Malta, operation Husky is put on hold...

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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by McGuba » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:20 am

LandMarine wrote:
Say you take Eygpt and cut off the Suez Canal, wouldn't that stop prestige from this theatre all together? Other objectives like the Middle East and Gibraltar should have this same effect (taking Gibraltar would be desvestating to the Allies)
Yeah, that would make sense, but then again, there is just not enough AI zones to cover all the possible consequencies. Currently North Africa and the Middle East has only one AI zone assined. Thus I cannot script it for such events. And Gibraltar is not an objective at the moment. It is just waaay too heavily defended. It has its own fleet to defend it, as historically. Even taking Malta is quite hard, but it is surrounded by Axis bases, so Gibraltar would be a totally different story. Still, it is not impossible to take it, just not really worth it at the moment. I would need to assign another AI zone to it to have some more interesting action there, but I doubt that I could make place for yet another. But, I will try. I wanted to recreate the historical events in the first place, so those areas with real historical battles had the priority when I assigned the zones. And Gibraltar was not besieged, if I am right.

oasis22 wrote:Don't you think if somehow the Axis get a hold of Malta, operation Husky is put on hold...
Hi,

That is a real possibility. Though, it is another one of those speculative scenarios which may or may not have happened. The pros: Axis aircraft could interdict the invasion ships operating from Malta. The cons: Axis aircraft could interdict the invasion ships operating from Sicily and Italy as well. So I do not think that it would be a major obstacle. Malta was a big pain in the ar$& for the Axis as long as it was held by the Allies only because it was in the middle of 'Mare Nostrum', the home waters of Italy. I think it would have lost its importance once taken by the Axis. Quite similarily to Crete - it was only important until it was taken by the Germans. After that it was just another one of the many islands in the Med.

Also, the Germans captured the Channel Islands, but the Allies did not really bother taking them back before the Normandy landing. In fact, the German occupation of those islands only came to an end on 8 May 1945.
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by ThvN » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:18 am

Hi McGuba, my apologies for barging in, but I saw the discussion about the prestigious cities, do you already have any plans for Prague? It was considered quite a (political) prize by both the Allies and Axis and surrounded by heavy industry (Skoda Works) as well. So if you still need another city to add to the list...
McGuba wrote:Malta was a big pain in the ar$& for the Axis as long as it was held by the Allies only because it was in the middle of 'Mare Nostrum', the home waters of Italy. I think it would have lost its importance once taken by the Axis. Quite similarily to Crete - it was only important until it was taken by the Germans. After that it was just another one of the many islands in the Med.
Agreed, it was actually considered by the British to be very difficult to defend prior to the war, on they thought it wasn't a very important island. They only started (reluctantly) fortifying very late, and they were helped by the Italians, who were very passive and indecisive, although they should not be underestimated.

Even with the half-hearted defense strategy (sending only handfuls of fighters to defend it and not making a real effort to turn it into a proper base) the strategic drain on the Axis was noticable; it tied up the Italian fleet and any operation in the mediterranean needed to account for any British activity. Even with a handful of ships sitting in the harbour the British could force the Axis in employing a lot of units for escorting convoys, etc., which was a big drain on resources.

BTW, during the first quarter of 1941, the Luftwaffe easily neutralized the island for a couple of months from the air but in typical fashion they left when other theaters started to get more attention...
While playing I often had the feeling, all right, so, what should I do now? Sometimes it is hard when nobody ones tells us what to do.
A very nice way to put it, I guess that is actually very realistic, I would say that that feeling captures the strategic picture perfectly. It sums up some of the strange decisions that were made 'on the fly' and later backfired by being spread out to much with no clear strategy involved. Note that this was not just an Axis flaw, the Allies had some of their baffling moments as well, but at least they won. :mrgreen:

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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by LandMarine47 » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:12 am

McGuba this is an interesting request, but a Player should have an option to build a strongpoint/point for a MASSIVE amount of resources! I think this would be good and bad Though.
The Good, When the Allies come knocking on the doors of Germany, these forts will keep that door shut
The bad, the Player will spam these at places like Italy, Sicily, Normandy, Stalingrad etc...

I think this is good as this is a massive scale scenario

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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by iceFlame » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:11 am

McGuba wrote:Problem is that since we are talking about one zone I can only add the same value for each city hex. I could only add 100 to Rome and 50 to the rest by adding two city hexes to Rome each worth 50. So in this case I tend to go for adding sixty-something to all four, unless you have an idea for a fifth city to add to the list.
McGuba wrote:On a second thought, I think Tunis could be added to the list of cities 'worth fighting for' as its loss will trigger the Allied landings in Italy and Sicily. Also, it would make the player reconsider the possiblity of evacuating Africa early on, to use those troops agianst the USSR.
I can see Tunis as being a strong possibility, mostly due to the fact it represented the last Axis foothold on the African continent. Lose it and the Axis are swept from the theatre, (big loss of prestige there), plus the door to Italy is pried open.

That being said, how would adding Tunis to the list effect the politics of Vichy France? Is it possible to script the prestige along historical lines so as not to take effect until November '42? And if not, are we creating a situation where the player is likely to act along non-historic lines in order to benefit from additional prestige which is probably not warranted pre-Torch?
ThvN wrote:Hi McGuba, my apologies for barging in, but I saw the discussion about the prestigious cities, do you already have any plans for Prague? It was considered quite a (political) prize by both the Allies and Axis and surrounded by heavy industry (Skoda Works) as well. So if you still need another city to add to the list...
I suppose much of the question of prestige depends upon the year in view. From 1938 to 1940, Prague was undoubtedly a great prize, particularly in light of the munitions industry and the skilled workforce which accounted for around a quarter of Germany's weaponry during Fall Gelb.

As the war progressed however, and with the corresponding increase in German production, Prague's value began to lessen. Also, its central European location tends to mitigate against any pivotal battles being fought there, (at least not before the outcome is no longer in doubt), so it doesn't offer the same game-play advantages as a city like Tunis would.

In other words, I have no serious objection to it being included on the list, other then to ask if it would give the Axis a 'free' prestige zone which is almost impossible to assail until the end game?
ThvN wrote:
McGuba wrote:While playing I often had the feeling, all right, so, what should I do now? Sometimes it is hard when nobody ones tells us what to do.
A very nice way to put it, I guess that is actually very realistic, I would say that that feeling captures the strategic picture perfectly. It sums up some of the strange decisions that were made 'on the fly' and later backfired by being spread out to much with no clear strategy involved. Note that this was not just an Axis flaw, the Allies had some of their baffling moments as well, but at least they won. :mrgreen:
Interesting discussion...

There certainly is a feeling of 'void' when it comes to grand strategy. No matter how long one weighs the options and analyzes the possible outcomes there's always that sense of uncertainty around each new offensive. Few things feel worse then the sinking realization that objectives that seemed so worthwhile only days ago are suddenly undone by an unexpected turn of events. Honestly, they don't pay these guys enough. :wink:
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McGuba
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by McGuba » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:54 am

ThvN wrote:
Hi McGuba, my apologies for barging in, but I saw the discussion about the prestigious cities, do you already have any plans for Prague? It was considered quite a (political) prize by both the Allies and Axis and surrounded by heavy industry (Skoda Works) as well. So if you still need another city to add to the list...
Hi (Thomas), and welcome here, there is no need to apologize. It is better the make suggestions now, than later, when the mod is already finished. Prague was indeed very important, but in this mod it is considered to be a major 'German' city (sorry for the Czech folks reading this), just as Vienna, being fully integrated to the Reich, and as such it is imperative to hold it anyway to acheive a victory or even a draw. Also because of its geographical position it is much more likely that Vienna or Berlin will be besieged firstly in case of a successful Red Army offensive in 1944.

the Italians, who were very passive and indecisive, although they should not be underestimated.
Absolutely right. I have been doing a sort of 'campaign' for some time now, aimed at changing the general view on the Minor Axis nations war efforts. My earlier Hungarian mod and, to a lesser extent, this mod is also partially aimed at this. Those 'Minor' nations were indeed mostly in the shadow of the Wehrmacht, but it would not be fair to compare them to the world's most effective army of the time. Additionally, German generals, especially from the second part of the war had a tendency to gain all the praise and glory for the successes to themselves, while placing all the blame at their allies for the failures. The best example might be Stalingrad - general opinion blames only the Romanians for the German defeat, but there is little word on the fact that the best German panzer divisions were also unable to break through and relieve their encircled comrades.

All I am saying is that, while those Minor Axis nations were badly ill-equipped for most of the WW2, at times these armies also achieved successes, even if they had to pay a higher price for it.

Even with the half-hearted defense strategy (sending only handfuls of fighters to defend it and not making a real effort to turn it into a proper base) the strategic drain on the Axis was noticable; it tied up the Italian fleet and any operation in the mediterranean needed to account for any British activity. Even with a handful of ships sitting in the harbour the British could force the Axis in employing a lot of units for escorting convoys, etc., which was a big drain on resources.
Sure, and it is well represented in the mod. It is really annoying to have this tiny island of resisitance in the middle of Mare Nostrum, even if the player concentrates on defeating the Soviets.

BTW, during the first quarter of 1941, the Luftwaffe easily neutralized the island for a couple of months from the air but in typical fashion they left when other theaters started to get more attention...
Yeah, because those planes were needed in the east for an operation named after Emperor Barbarossa.

the Allies had some of their baffling moments as well, but at least they won.
Yeah, but I think it has something to do with the fact that they produced four times more tanks and aircraft than the Axis...

LandMarine wrote:
McGuba this is an interesting request, but a Player should have an option to build a strongpoint/point for a MASSIVE amount of resources! I think this would be good and bad Though.
Yeah, sure, not too hard to implement: it would be a new unit, a truck or something that can switch to a fortification, but cannot switch back. But, what would be the price? And the stats? Should it be a 'Strongpoint' only, or a 'Fort' as well?

By the way, currently Stongpoints and Forts are 'being built' along the Atlantic wall some turns before D-day, but my testing showed that these were easily destroyed in a few turns by the battleships/aircraft/invading infantry. So they really just slow down their advance...

IceFlame wrote:
That being said, how would adding Tunis to the list effect the politics of Vichy France? Is it possible to script the prestige along historical lines so as not to take effect until November '42? And if not, are we creating a situation where the player is likely to act along non-historic lines in order to benefit from additional prestige which is probably not warranted pre-Torch?
Huh, currently Vichy France is set as Axis nation. I know that this is not entirely correct, but for gameplay reason it is better IMO. If it was set as 'neutral' the Axis player would not see what is happening e.g. in Southern France at the start of the scenario, and would decide to simply conquer these areas to gain a handful of prestige, which would be unhistorical. So now, up until Torch, Vichy France is an Axis nation with cities in North Africa and South France and with a few units, but no new units can be recruited as it is set as Aux country. When Torch comes, HINT! HINT! HINT! do not read further!!! most of those units in North Africa change sides and join the Allies, and as a result, as historically, the Vichy French flags in Southern France change to German to indicate the occupation of that area. However, the Vichy French flags in Tunisia does not change so the player cannot recruit units there easily to repel the Americans. Instead, as historically, he has to transfer the troops there in a hurry, from wherever he can.

It might be possible, though, to script that the player does not get prestige for Tunis until Torch comes. But in that case the player would get less prestige earlier, which would effect the earlier war efforts. And probably would not get that prestige for long. I will think about it in depth.

There certainly is a feeling of 'void' when it comes to grand strategy. No matter how long one weighs the options and analyzes the possible outcomes there's always that sense of uncertainty around each new offensive. Few things feel worse then the sinking realization that objectives that seemed so worthwhile only days ago are suddenly undone by an unexpected turn of events. Honestly, they don't pay these guys enough. :wink:
Haha, there must be a poet in you! :D
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BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:03 pm

Idea from War of the World 1.1 - Vichy Actions:

When Vichy France is occupied (after 1941) by either side, the North African Colnies turn against the invader, but in France they do nothing. Vice versa for invasion of N Africa. Any thoughts?

- BNC
Creator of American Civil War mod for Strategic Command WWI!
Discuss here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4504986
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guille1434
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by guille1434 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:42 am

Hello McGuba!

Seeing the images uploaded of this mod, I could not help to see the beautiful Finnish aircraft with the two tone camo... I would like very much to add them in my collection of Finnish units... Would you be so kind to share their camo skin if you are using the DCS program to make them? And if possible the icons themselves... :-)

Thanks!
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Finnish Planes.png
Finnish Planes.png (200.22 KiB) Viewed 4049 times

McGuba
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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD

Post by McGuba » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:00 am

Idea from War of the World 1.1 - Vichy Actions:

When Vichy France is occupied (after 1941) by either side, the North African Colnies turn against the invader, but in France they do nothing. Vice versa for invasion of N Africa. Any thoughts?

- BNC
Only that it is a great idea, which fits nicely in the general concept of your War of the World mod.

.
guille1434 wrote:
Seeing the images uploaded of this mod, I could not help to see the beautiful Finnish aircraft with the two tone camo... I would like very much to add them in my collection of Finnish units... Would you be so kind to share their camo skin if you are using the DCS program to make them? And if possible the icons themselves... :-)
Hi,

No problem, but this time I did not use the DCS program as I find it less useful for aircraft (otherwise it is a really great tool). I just edited the original bebro icons with photoshop. I could make the Finnish swastika more recognizable, but decided to make it less explicit as the swastika is banned in several countries, even if the Finnish one has nothing to do with the one used by the Germans:
Finn_Buffalo.png
Finn_Buffalo.png (29.73 KiB) Viewed 4037 times

Note that the nose section of the Blenheim Mark I, which was mainly used by the Finns, is not fully identical with that of the Mark IV:
Finn_Blenheim.png
Finn_Blenheim.png (42.62 KiB) Viewed 4037 times

And the Finnish Bf-109G, available from mid 1943:
Finn_Bf_109G.png
Finn_Bf_109G.png (30.22 KiB) Viewed 4037 times

EDIT: by the way, some of the latest units from your topic also made it to this mod such as the excelllent L4500 heavy truck, and I have just added some merchant ships made by Asuser/or you(?), to boost the Battle of Atlantic part of this mod a bit. So I think your topic is a great initiative and a great help for present and future modders, many thanks for making it!
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