Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.0

[guille1434]

Hello McGuba!

First, thanks a lot for sharing your Finnish icons! They are excellent. I like the Finnish aircraft camo very much!
About the Blenheim, it is a good thing to have an accurate Mk.I icon which is very different in the forward fuselage section than the Mk.IV variant which is the one showed by the "vanilla" game icon... Besides, the Blenheim Mk.I was used by a lot of nations (Uk, Yugoslavia, Finland, etc...) so it deserved a icon of its own. I also am preparing a base icon of that variant of this nice aircraft, I think it will be released soon.

About the icons in my topic: I am glad you find some use for them, the idea behind all my work is to help modders to give more variety and visual flavor to their works. The merchant ships were, indeed, made by Asuser, and I just helped him with the masks and some very minor detailing... He made an excellent job with those units.
Keep using them, and don't be shy to ask for something new you may need!

[McGuba]

guille1434 wrote:
it is a good thing to have an accurate Mk.I icon which is very different in the forward fuselage section than the Mk.IV variant which is the one showed by the "vanilla" game icon...

Yes, it is quite silly that they mixed up the two versions as they look really different. By the way I noticed another mix up with the tanks. First I thought that at least the tanks are all right, after all it is a tank game in the first place, but it seems that they assigned the wrong icon for the Panzer IIIJ/1 as well. This should be the second batch of the Ausf. J with the long L/60 50mm gun, as it is indicated by its stats (+2 Hard Attack), but the icon has the same short gun as the earlier Panzer IIIJ, which was indeed equipped with the short L/42 50mm gun. So what I did, was just reassigned the icon for the PzIIIJ/1, which now uses the PzIIIL icon, with the long gun, which seems more correct. In heat of the battle it is quite important to recognize the tanks with the better gun without clicking on them. And the PzIIIJ/1 icon is now used by the PzIIIJ.

Keep using them, and don't be shy to ask for something new you may need!

OK, thanks, I am not that shy, I think now I have all the icons I wanted. Currently there are more than 400 new or modified icons in the icon folder of the mod, so I think it should be enough. I made a quite a few conversions and corrections, mainly for those "forgotten" minor nations to replace the generic icons of PzC.

[guille1434]

You are right, Mac! Nice catch with the mixed variants & icons... Just corrected them in my collection!

Congratulations for all your hard work!

[LandMarine47]

Another fun thing would be Spain on the Axis side, as historically, Franco said he would join should Hitler invade and capture Great Britain. Seeing an entire Spanish army join the war effort would be cool! And you could virtually besiege Gibraltar. Form here.

[McGuba]

I do not think that Franco would have risked his regime for going to a war with uncertain outcome on the side of Germany. And history proved that he was right. However, the Spanish volunteer Blue Division could be added as it numbered some 18.000 men and it made an important contribution to the siege of Leningrad.

[iceFlame]

There were diplomatic efforts to try and get the Spaniards on board, but in the end, the time-line was simply too great to overcome. Consider it took the new fascist regime in Germany six long years before they were confident enough to risk hostilities (and that without having just endured a civil war). By comparison, the Spanish nationalists were still exhausted (and as a result) in no condition to contemplate tackling foreign powers.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

I included Spain as a potential Axis Power in War of the World, so it is possible. Maybe make it that Franco joins if the Germans have conquered the UK and are winning in Russia?

I'm quite surprised at how quickly this has been getting posts, as it has almost caught up to WWI (and it's only been here 1/3 as long!)

- BNC (hoping to here more stuff soon)

[guille1434]

BNC and McGuba: Keep up the good work! And, above all, HAVE FUN!

[McGuba]

I understand the advantages of a possible Spanish Axis ally, but just as iceFlame strenghtened my point in a very reasonable way, I think it is improbable for Spain to enter WW2 on the Axis side 'officially'. So it will stay neutral in this mod. More so, I do not have any free AI zones for such a script. And I will continue to use the ones I have to depict historical events and some other more probable alternative scenarios, such as Operation Sealion.

Maybe make it that Franco joins if the Germans have conquered the UK and are winning in Russia?

If this happens why would we ever need the Spaniards on board? Only to have one more nation to get a share of the prize? It would not make much sense... And indeed, it seems that until the German leaders were certain of their victory they did not really encourage Spain to join in. And when things started to get worse, it was the Spanish who became more and more reluctant to do so, even though by that time, not surprisingly, the Germans changed their minds and tried their best to drag Spain into the war.

[LandMarine47]

We'll yo replicate this perhaps after London falls, the Germans get a Spanish Corps to simulate this? They were very useful in Russia

[LandMarine47]

Another topic is invasions. There should be a limit to how many troops can be in Landing Craft, as historically the Germans only really had enough transports for maybe a Corps. They would then depend on ferrying troops across the channel. A good reason why the Germans would have never really won, even with Air Supremancy. Maybe if the Home Fleet was lured out (like Napoleon tried) it would work

[Uhu]

Great project, McGuba!
You were always good to make interesting and nice surprise scripted events in the scenarios so it is good that you use this talent of yours.
- Can be the overhelming air superiority of the Western Allies from 1943 simulated? + The option when the player focuses to build up a strong anti-airforce to counter it?
- I think the strategy can be only, that you concentrate your forces always in one direction while you hold off the attacking enemy at the other fronts. Still I have no problem with that.

[McGuba]

LandMarine wrote:
We'll yo replicate this perhaps after London falls, the Germans get a Spanish Corps to simulate this? They were very useful in Russia

All right, if there is a popular demand I can add a few aux Spanish units, but not Spain as an Axis nation.

Another topic is invasions. There should be a limit to how many troops can be in Landing Craft, as historically the Germans only really had enough transports for maybe a Corps.

Hm. I did not know about this. Thing is that, if the player loses a unit while at sea in a naval transport, the naval transport is gone for good. And there is no way to replace it. It is possible to add ships to appear on the map later, but not naval transports. So it would make it a very risky operation as naval transports are needed not only for a possible Sealion, but also to transport troops to and from Africa and they are quite useful in the Black Sea as well. And chances are high that a few naval transports will be sunk by the RN. (I am just testing an alternative timeline, in which Germany goes against Britain and it seems almost impossible to avoid losing a few ships to the combination of British coastal guns/ships/aircraft.) So I think there should be at least 10-12 naval transports available. In this mod 'Landing Crafts' represent not only landing crafts, i.e. the relatively small vessels used to take troops ashore from the big ships, but naval transports in general, i.e. all kinds of troop and other ships used to carry troops and weapons for longer distances. Such as the ones used to take reinforcements to the Afrika Korps. Thus I renamed the unit to 'Naval Transport'. And I think the Axis had enough of these, at least in the beginning.

Maybe if the Home Fleet was lured out (like Napoleon tried) it would work

It is possible to do it, but not so easy. The Home Fleet will only move out if there is a major landing attempt. If there are only a few naval transports or just a few paratroopers, they just leave it to the Home Guard to deal with them.

Uhu wrote:
Can be the overhelming air superiority of the Western Allies from 1943 simulated? + The option when the player focuses to build up a strong anti-airforce to counter it?

Yes, it is simulated. (Unless the player captures England in the meantime...) But the air superiority will be lost in other theaters as well, normally. With the introduction of newer and better aircraft the Soviets will also slowly gain it. However, allocating the forces is entirely up to the player, i.e. he can decide to purchase more aircraft, but only at the cost of ohter units, as there is a maximum of 250 unit core army cap. Or, he can decide to invest in some miracle weapons in the final stage, but miracles do not come cheap. As the mod mainly uses deducter's stats, the formidable Me 262 costs some 1200 prestige, for instance. Which allows another interesting decision: quality or quantitiy?

I think the strategy can be only, that you concentrate your forces always in one direction while you hold off the attacking enemy at the other fronts. Still I have no problem with that.

You are very right in this. This is the basic concept of the mod. If you want to attack and win everywhere, chances are high that you will lose everything in the end. It seems that it was one of the major factors contributing to the defeat of Germany in the end: sometimes they concentrated their efforts against the Soviets, sometimes against the Western Allies, sometimes against both. Compare it to the the Soviets: first they won in Europe, and only then they agreed to regroup to the far east against the Japanese. The Americans also decided to give priority to Europe over the Pacific early on and did not change their minds until victory. However, it is possible to play the mod in the historical way as well, but in that case even a draw can be considered a victory.

[LandMarine47]

It should be an option to buy more Naval Transports, like in the Commander games "increase Naval capacity)

[LandMarine47]

Another objective should be, how would the British react to an Invasion of Ireland? In fact, Hitler was prepared to invade Ireland to support Sealion. Home Fleet should send half of its naval capacity by sailing around Great Britain.

[iceFlame]

Or, he can decide to invest in some miracle weapons in the final stage, but miracles do not come cheap.

Definitely not cheap. Which makes you wonder about some of the late war wunderwaffe programs. Yes the Germans were becoming increasingly desperate, and yes public pressure to 'strike back' was mounting. But I can't help but think what might have been achieved if these urges had been resisted?

Take for example the V1 and V2 rocket programs, both of which consumed an inordinate amount of resources for very little in the way of tangible results. If these resources had been committed to more conventional weapons, (say Tiger and Panther production), then perhaps the Germans could have mounted a summer offensive in 1944 to help counter the tide of Bagration.

As the mod mainly uses deducter's stats, the formidable Me 262 costs some 1200 prestige, for instance. Which allows another interesting decision: quality or quantitiy?

Formidable indeed. A summer offensive in '44 likely wouldn't have changed the end result, but it may well have bought more time in which to get larger numbers of 262's into the air, which might have made a difference.

As for quality versus quantity, I think the Ostfront serves as a great example to illustrate the concept. Case in point, Stalin's utter disregard for casualties as he repeatedly 'spammed' wave after wave of Soviet soldiers into German lines. It gives a whole new meaning to the idea that the objective must be taken at all costs.

Faced with this type of opponent, eventually a tipping point is reached where no matter how adept your tactical prowess may be, eventually you're overwhelmed by sheer numbers. So yes, quality will defeat quantity, but only to a certain point. After which overwhelming quantity will ultimately trump all.

If you want to attack and win everywhere, chances are high that you will lose everything in the end. It seems that it was one of the major factors contributing to the defeat of Germany in the end: sometimes they concentrated their efforts against the Soviets, sometimes against the Western Allies, sometimes against both.

Well said. If the German had retained focus and concluded the campaign against England (before turning on Russia), events likely would have been far more favorable for them.

[Uhu]

If the German...

It's not about the Germans - its's about Hitler. He made the decisiones - more and more and after 1941 even to battalion level.
Sure if he didn't do that and let the professionals (the general stuff) to decide about the military directions the course of war were different. (good axample for that when he had to let Manstein to make his own plan in early 1943). Maybe the outcome would not differ but if I say the East/Middle Europe weren't for example under communitst rule that have been a major difference... (Although who says that Germany already lost the war at the beginning or after 1941 becuse of the quantity of war material and soldiers of the Allies seems to forget that Germany won earlier of WW2 also many time against overhelming odds.)

It is really interesting to see how the two dictator changed their leading style: while Stalin made all the decisions in the first years in the Eastern front and did not let any retreats later he let more and more decisions to his generals. And as time progressed Hitler did go to the other direction.

Therefore "we" (the player) have a big bonus: that we becomes not so fixated againts any ideas and not so mad (at least not most players ) as Hitler was.

[McGuba]

LandMarine wrote:
It should be an option to buy more Naval Transports, like in the Commander games "increase Naval capacity)

Yes, it should, but it is not.

Another objective should be, how would the British react to an Invasion of Ireland? In fact, Hitler was prepared to invade Ireland to support Sealion. Home Fleet should send half of its naval capacity by sailing around Great Britain.

OK. This time I answere with a question, sorry: how should the British react to an invasion of Sweden or Turkey or Spain or Portugal or Switzerland? And how should the Germans react if the British would do the same? What about the Americans and the Soviets? Would they just sit and wait, doing nothing? Or maybe not? That's why I wrote these possibilities are endless. But, the number of AI zones in PzC is far from being endless. On the contrary, it is very, very limited: only 32. And these are already used to depict those events which did happen historically.

ceFlame wrote:
Take for example the V1 and V2 rocket programs, both of which consumed an inordinate amount of resources for very little in the way of tangible results. If these resources had been committed to more conventional weapons, (say Tiger and Panther production), then perhaps the Germans could have mounted a summer offensive in 1944 to help counter the tide of Bagration.

Yes, but they did not know how effective the V weapons would be in the beginning. They thought that these would be much more devastating, forcing the Western Allies to initiate peace talks. Which would have allowed the Germans to fully concentrate on the Eastern Front. It did not happen, as it was another all-or-nothing gamble. But, if we think about the post-war ballistic missiles, which were all based on the V2, and their possible effects, that is another story. So in a way they were right with the V2, they just did it in the wrong time. A few decades earlier than they should have.

So yes, quality will defeat quantity, but only to a certain point. After which overwhelming quantity will ultimately trump all.

Yeah, sure, and in PzC even the best tank runs out of ammo and from that point it is nothing more than a harmless steel obstacle standing in the way of the attackers...

Well said. If the German had retained focus and concluded the campaign against England (before turning on Russia), events likely would have been far more favorable for them.

Sure. I am just testing this alternative path, and it seems to work. But, taking England is not so easy, and not only because of the RAF and RN, but also because of the determined defenders, who "fight on the beaches, fight in the cities" - fight just about everywhere. Once England is taken, though, things are much easier.

Uhu wrote:
It's not about the Germans - its's about Hitler. He made the decisiones - more and more and after 1941 even to battalion level.

Yes, his growing interference in military matters considerably shortened the war. Luckily for everyone. That's why this mod assumes that this pesky criminal is removed from power along with his closest followers, allowing the player to take full control of the Axis forces. Otherwise this would not happen, would it?

[LandMarine47]

Considering the Axis Transports system, does this count for only Germany, or all of it allies?

[iceFlame]

It is really interesting to see how the two dictator changed their leading style: while Stalin made all the decisions in the first years in the Eastern front and did not let any retreats later he let more and more decisions to his generals. And as time progressed Hitler did go to the other direction.

Yes it is interesting. Especially in light of the fact Stalin 'purged' his generals and replaced them with people who were (among other things,) more politically reliable whereas Hitler ranted (late-in-the-war) that he should have done the same.

But you're quite correct, the micro-management was a disasterous turn, largely fueled by his early success and an abiding distrust of the military establishment. (Hence the pre-war creation of a rival body, and the in-war development of a favored elite).

Therefore "we" (the player) have a big bonus: that we becomes not so fixated againts any ideas and not so mad (at least not most players ) as Hitler was.

Thankfully so... The ill-fated turn on Russia was largely fueled by ideology, and as history shows, Ideologues are frequently driven to do things which are contrary to sound judgment and reason.

Yes, but they did not know how effective the V weapons would be in the beginning. They thought that these would be much more devastating, forcing the Western Allies to initiate peace talks.

Yes, your point is well taken, it's just that in the actual event the V weapons never achieved anything beyond random terror of civilians. If they had been capable of damaging or reducing Allied war production, then the effort (and consumption of so many resources) may have been worthwhile. But I would suggest the program was largely misguided in that the technology to allow focused, pinpoint attacks had not yet been developed.

It's kind of like inventing a car but having no idea of how to come up with a steering wheel. The later makes the former redundant. This being the case, IMO it was an ill-advised gamble which had little to no chance of any real success.

At the risk of repeating myself, I think the resources would have been better spent conventionally so the Axis could have had some response to Bagration, rather than just leaving the east to fend for itself.