Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

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Konigstiger88
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Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by Konigstiger88 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:59 am

The Panzer IVD (as well as E and F1) and Panzer IIIN were armed with the same short barreled 75mm infantry support gun as the early Stugs (artillery StugA and B in the game). Both the tanks and the Stugs could only raise them by around 20 degrees, making indirect fire impractical (but not unheard of). The "artillery mode" of the stugs doesn't necessarily represent indirect fire but suppressing fire. So since the Panzer IIIN and IVD had the same guns and firing capabilities, why not give them an artillery switch mode as well? (for those with the necessary mod) This would give some nice versatility to the IVD's and some relevance to the IIIN. This however, does open a can of worms in the sense some may argue you could make all tanks capable of an artillery switch mode and that would overly complicate things.
So any thoughts on this?

terminator
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by terminator » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:31 am

Good idea especially for the Panzer IIIN :idea:
The 7.5 cm KwK 37 L/24 (7.5 cm Kampfwagenkanone 37 L/24) was a short-barreled, howitzer-like German 75 mm tank gun used during World War II, primarily as the main armaments of the early Panzer IV tanks. Slightly modified as StuK 37 (7,5-cm SturmKanone 37 L/24), it was also mounted in early StuG III assault guns.
In 1943 depleted stocks and continued demand from producing Panzer III Ausf. N required restarting production of a slightly revised version under the designation 7.5 cm K 51 L/24 (7.5 cm Kanone 51 L/24).
This gun has also been mounted on some vehicles (Sd.Kfz.).
Nickname : „Stummel

guille1434
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by guille1434 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:49 pm

Yes, from time to time, I thought about giving an artillery mode to the 7,5 cm short barrelled german tanks... after all, the battle role of said vehicles was mainly infantry fire support against pillboxes, machine gun nests, etc..., not combat against enemy tanks. The problem is, every tank with a cannon can make indirect fire, so it would be fair to give every tank (or, at least, the ones with guns of 75 mm caliber and upwards) this ability... On the other hand, in the vanilla game equipment file, the M4 Sherman with 105 mm howitzer was given a switch to an indirect fire mode...

So, I think it is a question of doctrine, and not about hardware (tank guns) capabilities. I think, short barrelled Pz IV variants and the Pz IIIN could be given an artillery mode, but with lower attack values (specially hard attack values) to make them a little less effective than StuG III assault guns. The reason would be that StuG units were crewed by artillerymen, so I think they could use their guns more effectively in the indirect fire support role than their fellow panzer crewmen, trained with more focus in tank vs. tank combat.

Just my thoughts on this interesting subject. 8)

Konigstiger88
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by Konigstiger88 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:30 pm

guille1434 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:49 pm
Yes, from time to time, I thought about giving an artillery mode to the 7,5 cm short barrelled german tanks... after all, the battle role of said vehicles was mainly infantry fire support against pillboxes, machine gun nests, etc..., not combat against enemy tanks. The problem is, every tank with a cannon can make indirect fire, so it would be fair to give every tank (or, at least, the ones with guns of 75 mm caliber and upwards) this ability... On the other hand, in the vanilla game equipment file, the M4 Sherman with 105 mm howitzer was given a switch to an indirect fire mode...

So, I think it is a question of doctrine, and not about hardware (tank guns) capabilities. I think, short barrelled Pz IV variants and the Pz IIIN could be given an artillery mode, but with lower attack values (specially hard attack values) to make them a little less effective than StuG III assault guns. The reason would be that StuG units were crewed by artillerymen, so I think they could use their guns more effectively in the indirect fire support role than their fellow panzer crewmen, trained with more focus in tank vs. tank combat.

Just my thoughts on this interesting subject. 8)
That's a good idea and reasoning. I was uncertain about how to balance it but that could make it practical.

maguro
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by maguro » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:00 am

Konigstiger88 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:30 pm
guille1434 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:49 pm
Yes, from time to time, I thought about giving an artillery mode to the 7,5 cm short barrelled german tanks... after all, the battle role of said vehicles was mainly infantry fire support against pillboxes, machine gun nests, etc..., not combat against enemy tanks. The problem is, every tank with a cannon can make indirect fire, so it would be fair to give every tank (or, at least, the ones with guns of 75 mm caliber and upwards) this ability... On the other hand, in the vanilla game equipment file, the M4 Sherman with 105 mm howitzer was given a switch to an indirect fire mode...

So, I think it is a question of doctrine, and not about hardware (tank guns) capabilities. I think, short barrelled Pz IV variants and the Pz IIIN could be given an artillery mode, but with lower attack values (specially hard attack values) to make them a little less effective than StuG III assault guns. The reason would be that StuG units were crewed by artillerymen, so I think they could use their guns more effectively in the indirect fire support role than their fellow panzer crewmen, trained with more focus in tank vs. tank combat.

Just my thoughts on this interesting subject. 8)
That's a good idea and reasoning. I was uncertain about how to balance it but that could make it practical.
I too like this idea and I feel like the Panzer IIIN is a good place to start. Personally, I'm not too concerned with realism and the Pz IIIN (and the other short 75 panzers) seems to have been less intended to deal directly with tanks anyway so maybe giving it an ATY/support function is fitting. I'd go check the sources about tactical use but I don't care. I think your idea gives the player a little more practical use in the game. I will make mine a little less effective that the StuG IIIA as well for the reasons Guille mentioned above. Thanks for the idea Konigstiger88 :D

Below is a quick attempt at a Panzer IIIN "support" version if you want to try it out in-game. I'll probably touch it up a bit and make a mask later when I have some more time. Not sure how active Guille is lately with making units but maybe he can add some nice touches...
Panzer_IIIN_ATY.png
Panzer_IIIN_ATY.png (39.53 KiB) Viewed 1310 times

Konigstiger88
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by Konigstiger88 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:15 am

maguro wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:00 am
Konigstiger88 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:30 pm
guille1434 wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:49 pm
Yes, from time to time, I thought about giving an artillery mode to the 7,5 cm short barrelled german tanks... after all, the battle role of said vehicles was mainly infantry fire support against pillboxes, machine gun nests, etc..., not combat against enemy tanks. The problem is, every tank with a cannon can make indirect fire, so it would be fair to give every tank (or, at least, the ones with guns of 75 mm caliber and upwards) this ability... On the other hand, in the vanilla game equipment file, the M4 Sherman with 105 mm howitzer was given a switch to an indirect fire mode...

So, I think it is a question of doctrine, and not about hardware (tank guns) capabilities. I think, short barrelled Pz IV variants and the Pz IIIN could be given an artillery mode, but with lower attack values (specially hard attack values) to make them a little less effective than StuG III assault guns. The reason would be that StuG units were crewed by artillerymen, so I think they could use their guns more effectively in the indirect fire support role than their fellow panzer crewmen, trained with more focus in tank vs. tank combat.

Just my thoughts on this interesting subject. 8)
That's a good idea and reasoning. I was uncertain about how to balance it but that could make it practical.
I too like this idea and I feel like the Panzer IIIN is a good place to start. Personally, I'm not too concerned with realism and the Pz IIIN (and the other short 75 panzers) seems to have been less intended to deal directly with tanks anyway so maybe giving it an ATY/support function is fitting. I'd go check the sources about tactical use but I don't care. I think your idea gives the player a little more practical use in the game. I will make mine a little less effective that the StuG IIIA as well for the reasons Guille mentioned above. Thanks for the idea Konigstiger88 :D

Below is a quick attempt at a Panzer IIIN "support" version if you want to try it out in-game. I'll probably touch it up a bit and make a mask later when I have some more time. Not sure how active Guille is lately with making units but maybe he can add some nice touches...
Panzer_IIIN_ATY.png
I'm glad others find the idea useful. The icon looks pretty good. :D

maguro
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by maguro » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:22 am

Maybe this one is a little better??
Panzer_IIIN_ATY.png
Panzer_IIIN_ATY.png (41.45 KiB) Viewed 1294 times

maguro
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by maguro » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:51 am

Working backwards, here is a Panzer IVF. Again, not perfect by any stretch but it's a start.
Attachments
Panzer_IVF_ATY.png
Panzer_IVF_ATY.png (34.23 KiB) Viewed 1289 times

Konigstiger88
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by Konigstiger88 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:57 am

maguro wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:51 am
Working backwards, here is a Panzer IVF. Again, not perfect by any stretch but it's a start.
Very nice, the IIIN's barrel seems better and the IV is good.

maguro
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by maguro » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:18 am

Here's a Panzer IVD to round out the "short 75" panzers. Since I slightly revised the hull as well as the gun, I'm including an optional revised "direct firing" Panzer IVD icon to go with the ATY version. Icon makers, modders and anyone else feel free to pick these up and run with them.
Panzer_IVD_ATY.png
Panzer_IVD_ATY.png (36.35 KiB) Viewed 1280 times
Panzer_IVD.png
Panzer_IVD.png (38.07 KiB) Viewed 1280 times

maguro
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by maguro » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:03 pm

Here's a basic mask do go with the Pz III.
Panzer_IIIN_ATY_Mask.png
Panzer_IIIN_ATY_Mask.png (2.25 KiB) Viewed 1256 times

Yrfin
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by Yrfin » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:25 pm

Im used idea about switchable Pz IVD-F1/PzIIIN in my e-file.
viewtopic.php?f=147&t=79363&p=715989#p715989
ini 1 Range 1 SA/HA 7/4
Thanx maguro for icons support.
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dalfrede
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by dalfrede » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:06 pm

It should be noted that US M10 was converted to indirect fire use after it was replaced by M18 and M36 as a tank destroyer.

maguro
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by maguro » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:52 am

Here's an M10 to play around with.
US_M10_Wolverine_ATY.png
US_M10_Wolverine_ATY.png (45.9 KiB) Viewed 1176 times

Konigstiger88
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by Konigstiger88 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:53 am

maguro wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:52 am
Here's an M10 to play around with.
US_M10_Wolverine_ATY.png
That's pretty good.

Yrfin
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by Yrfin » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:30 pm

Great work maguro !
Can you make for me ATY version for M3 Lee/Grant (standart and Desert) ?
Thanx.
Shoot first. Ask questions later.

guille1434
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by guille1434 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:55 pm

Hello to all! Nice to see that this interesting topic caused a stir in this lately very quiet forum... :-(

Also, thanks to Maguro for sharing a bunch of new icons! :-)

I was also working in switchable short-gunned Pz IV icons, so I finished them to post them here. At present, no mask for them yet, but at least, you can have the "vanilla" style icons. Enjoy!
Attachments
Panzer_IVF-1_AT.png
Panzer_IVF-1_AT.png (32.76 KiB) Viewed 1088 times
Panzer_IVD_Aty.png
Panzer_IVD_Aty.png (32.55 KiB) Viewed 1088 times
Panzer_IVD_AT.png
Panzer_IVD_AT.png (32.51 KiB) Viewed 1088 times

guille1434
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by guille1434 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:57 pm

Pz IVF-1 Aty...
Attachments
Panzer_IVF-1_Aty.png
Panzer_IVF-1_Aty.png (32.93 KiB) Viewed 1087 times

maguro
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by maguro » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:28 am

Those look great Guille. I like the tweaks to the tracks/wheels. Did you update all your Panzer IV's suspension in that way?

guille1434
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Re: Artillery Switch Mode for Panzer IVD and Panzer IIIN

Post by guille1434 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:13 am

Hello Maguro... I'm glad you like those icons. No I didn't updated all the PzIV icons yet, but I plan to...

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