poll do axis need more oil

PSP/DS/PC/MAC : WWII turn based grand strategy game

Moderators: firepowerjohan, rkr1958, Happycat, Slitherine Core

axis extra oil

axis without extra oil
31
65%
yes
17
35%
 
Total votes: 48

rkr1958
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Post by rkr1958 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:21 pm

Plaid wrote:Game have 105 turns, absolutely sure.
Usually my games have fewer turns; especially when I'm the axis. :lol:

ncali
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Post by ncali » Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:39 pm

It depends on your playstyle (when you repair units) and how many oil-burning units there are how much you will save. But an extra 150 oil or so in the Axis reserves by mid-1943 could (or could not) be a significant factor, depending on the particular game.

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Post by Ironclad » Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:45 pm

ncali wrote:It depends on your playstyle (when you repair units) and how many oil-burning units there are how much you will save. But an extra 150 oil or so in the Axis reserves by mid-1943 could (or could not) be a significant factor, depending on the particular game.
It could indeed. In my limited experience with the game/mod the oil available for the Axis when winning/losing has seemed about right - if so after the update we may get a future post asking for Axis oil to be reduced to more realistic levels. :)

rkr1958
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Post by rkr1958 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:58 pm

I don't know if 3 extra oil points per turn or 54 per year is the correct figure; but let's for the moment assume that it is. On the surface it seems like wow I'm going to get an extra 54 oil points per year so after 3-years I have 162 more oil points in my stockpile. However; the reality may be like getting a 4 to 5% pay raise. At the end of the year you wonder where all that extra money, or in this case oil, went.

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Post by supermax » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:04 pm

rkr1958 wrote:I don't know if 3 extra oil points per turn or 54 per year is the correct figure; but let's for the moment assume that it is. On the surface it seems like wow I'm going to get an extra 54 oil points per year so after 3-years I have 162 more oil points in my stockpile. However; the reality may be like getting a 4 to 5% pay raise. At the end of the year you wonder where all that extra money, or in this case oil, went.
I disagree.

A player that saves oil like any proper general should would profit from it hugely.

Just think of Joe Rock's 1943 russian offensive with this 150 or so extra oil... That number is the difference in between sporadically using your TACS/FTR in 1943 to full on air cover for an eastern offensive.

gchristie
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Post by gchristie » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:00 pm

Would massina_nz's point about pro rating oil consumption for damaged units also be possible to apply for railing units? A half strength unit uses half normal rail points?

Would game engine allow this?

Is this a good game balance idea?

As Axis I know I could use more RR in order to conserve oil.

Another half baked thought..:idea:..is it possible to add research in synthetic oil as another choice along with industry, organization, etc? Sort of like HOI does? Breakthroughs would give some small increase in domestically produced oil but at a cost of PPs for investments.
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Post by Rhialto » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:12 pm

Do steps directly correspond to numbers of vehicles in say a ARM unit? I mean, does a 8-step ARM unit correspond to a division that has lost 20% of its tanks and support vehicles such that it would burn 20% less oil? Or does it reflect disorganization due to damage, temporary break down of vehicles, loss of command cohesion etc? If so this would not really reduce oil consumption even though fighting effectiveness is reduced.

massina_nz
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Post by massina_nz » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:20 pm

Rhialto wrote:Do steps directly correspond to numbers of vehicles in say a ARM unit? I mean, does a 8-step ARM unit correspond to a division that has lost 20% of its tanks and support vehicles such that it would burn 20% less oil? Or does it reflect disorganization due to damage, temporary break down of vehicles, loss of command cohesion etc? If so this would not really reduce oil consumption even though fighting effectiveness is reduced.
I would have thought that the unit effectiveness factor simulates the degree of organisation within a unit so that the strength factor is pretty much the number of fighting elements of the unit.

ncali
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Post by ncali » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:31 pm

gchristie wrote:Would Another half baked thought..:idea:..is it possible to add research in synthetic oil as another choice along with industry, organization, etc? Sort of like HOI does? Breakthroughs would give some small increase in domestically produced oil but at a cost of PPs for investments.
Not half-baked at all. In fact, it is already included in the design of the game! It's just not a separate category of research focus. The higher levels of industrial tech, in addition to increasing PP's, also increase the supply of oil slightly

rkr1958
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Post by rkr1958 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:43 pm

gchristie wrote:Would massina_nz's point about pro rating oil consumption for damaged units also be possible to apply for railing units? A half strength unit uses half normal rail points?
That's a good point.

gchristie
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Post by gchristie » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:49 pm

ncali wrote:Not half-baked at all. In fact, it is already included in the design of the game! It's just not a separate category of research focus. The higher levels of industrial tech, in addition to increasing PP's, also increase the supply of oil slightly
Of course! A quick look at the manual would have answered this one. "A country’s
Industrial Capacity modifies this Oil Production up or down, so new industrial
technologies can offer a vital few extra points of oil per turn."


Though it isn't clear from the research window that this is the case. I've seen some Axis players write in the forum that they prefer to focus research on organization over industry. But if industry is what ups oil production, that tips the scales over organization if I decide to focus on one.

The manual also states that "Industrial Technologies can
also be researched which increase the War Effort % of a nation.
The War Effort % affects PP and Oil Production. The War Effort % increases every
quarter from September 1939 onward and there is also a one-time boost to output
when a country enters the war."


Thanks ncali.
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_Augustus_
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Post by _Augustus_ » Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:37 pm

Looks like nobody else got motivated enough to keep track of how much the new feature saves oil for Axis in their game. Oh well, but I might as well post results from my second game since I took the notes.

Spring of 1944. Blocking Allies allies both in Italy and in France and desperately trying to plug holes the best I can againts the Soviet juggernaut approaching the Polish border. This time the saved ammount would have been 5 barrels. Of course would have actually wasted it right away by flying some damaged TACs if I was playing the betatesters version of game.

_augustus_

Peter Stauffenberg
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Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:12 pm

We're definitely keeping track of oil consumption in our GS v2.0 beta games. We will restart with GS v2.0v and then we will start tracking from scratch. I'm sure some beta testers will show you AAR's from GS v2.0v.

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Post by NotaPacifist » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:49 am

I voted yes. Without any pressure from the AI on Germany's oil reserves, and with much effort made to saving oil by a)using more infantry units, b)keeping the Italians virtually idle, and c)only moving oil-powered units when there is an attack to be made, AND with NO pressure from the AI on my industries, it's totally impossible to keep up. I use rail as much as possible, even at the expense of PP's.

All of this AFTER sitting idle, or moving by rail since the fall of France and having over 800 oil by the launch of Barbarossa a turn prior to it's historical date. By February 43' I'm down to about 120 oil with the Allies striking from just about every direction, with the end in sight.

Since it's now impossible to strike a unit more than twice from the air, the number of bomber units employed is much reduced, so one can't bomb units into inexistence...so I'm using fewer air units.

I could see that if attacks were being made on Ploesti and the Synthetic oil plants then I should have a problem. However, without such pressures I still have to give up on niceties like motorized infantry and a mountain of bomber units.

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Post by StevenCarleton » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:54 am

I have opponents who only want to do the operational aspects of the war, so we turn off the oil option and increase the difficulty level for the Allies.

But using the oil option makes things much more realistic. The entire concept of the Blitzkrieg was based in part on Germany's lack of critical natural resources like oil and iron ore. Instead of ruthlessly mobilizing the economy and preparing for a long war, Hitler preferred to strike without warning and conduct very intense, but short wars of 6-12 weeks duration. Then, stockpiles could be rebuilt.

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Post by pzv » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:36 am

I voted yes. The problem is not running out of oil as the Axis player. It is not a problem to play with the current restrictions and win. The problem as I see the current restrictions is that it results in unhistorical Axis play in two areas.

First the Axis knowing the oil restrictions going into the game will not build an historically accurate army. Especially there will be fewer oil consuming units than what Germany historically had.

Second, the Axis will not even consider some operations due to the oil situation as the in game benefit is outweighed by the need to preserve oil. Operations in Africa, Balkans, and Norway in particular are not worth pursuing.

The axis need some sort of restriction on oil. But I think the problem may be more with how the game is attempting to model oil. The germans were never able to build large oil stockpiles as you can in the game, but this did not seriously affect operations until mid 1944. The germans up until this point were generally able to produce what they needed. The real shortages started when the allies prioritized bombing of oil producing facilities.

rkr1958
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Post by rkr1958 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:50 am

pzv wrote:The germans were never able to build large oil stockpiles as you can in the game, but this did not seriously affect operations until mid 1944. The germans up until this point were generally able to produce what they needed. The real shortages started when the allies prioritized bombing of oil producing facilities.
I've heard a few folks make this argument but I really don't understand it. The 1942 axis offensive in southern Russia was designed to take the oil fields in the Caucuses. It was only when Hitler let it become a contest between him and Stalin that the whole thing got sidetracked to Stalingrad. If oil wasn't an issue for Germany until mid 1944 why did they devote so many men and resources to try to capture the Russian oil fields in the Caucuses in 1942?

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Post by OxfordGuy3 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:54 pm

pzv wrote: Second, the Axis will not even consider some operations due to the oil situation as the in game benefit is outweighed by the need to preserve oil. Operations in Africa, Balkans, and Norway in particular are not worth pursuing.
But isn't one of the main points of offensive Axis operations in North Africa to cross the Suez Canal to capture the Middle East Oil fields?
Also, operations in the Balkans shouldn't use much oil if done right, nor those in Norway, though using Norway as a base to launch air attacks on Lend-Lease convoys could, of course, use oil...

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Post by BuddyGrant » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:43 pm

rkr1958 wrote:
pzv wrote:The germans were never able to build large oil stockpiles as you can in the game, but this did not seriously affect operations until mid 1944. The germans up until this point were generally able to produce what they needed. The real shortages started when the allies prioritized bombing of oil producing facilities.
I've heard a few folks make this argument but I really don't understand it. The 1942 axis offensive in southern Russia was designed to take the oil fields in the Caucuses. It was only when Hitler let it become a contest between him and Stalin that the whole thing got sidetracked to Stalingrad. If oil wasn't an issue for Germany until mid 1944 why did they devote so many men and resources to try to capture the Russian oil fields in the Caucuses in 1942?
I think he's just saying that Germany did not actually run out of fuel for units before 1944, while in GS 1.07 they will often have no movement due to fuel shortages by late 1942 if they build historical units and follow historic offensive strategies (including mechanized units in Africa).

rkr1958
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Post by rkr1958 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:32 pm

BuddyGrant wrote:
rkr1958 wrote:
pzv wrote:The germans were never able to build large oil stockpiles as you can in the game, but this did not seriously affect operations until mid 1944. The germans up until this point were generally able to produce what they needed. The real shortages started when the allies prioritized bombing of oil producing facilities.
I've heard a few folks make this argument but I really don't understand it. The 1942 axis offensive in southern Russia was designed to take the oil fields in the Caucuses. It was only when Hitler let it become a contest between him and Stalin that the whole thing got sidetracked to Stalingrad. If oil wasn't an issue for Germany until mid 1944 why did they devote so many men and resources to try to capture the Russian oil fields in the Caucuses in 1942?
I think he's just saying that Germany did not actually run out of fuel for units before 1944, while in GS 1.07 they will often have no movement due to fuel shortages by late 1942 if they build historical units and follow historic offensive strategies (including mechanized units in Africa).
I've played several very good players who as the axis have achieved better than historical results builds probably larger than historical number of oil consuming German units who did not come close to running out of oil. Players like Joe Rock, Neil, Borger and Max. Believe me that I did everything I could to force them to burn oil and in one instance Joe revealed to me that is was only in 1945 that his oil stockpile dropped below 300.

I wonder how many of these players that run out of oil in 1942 are attacking and / or moving oil consuming units every turn?

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