Dyle Plan - what next?

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Peter Stauffenberg
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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:58 pm

I agree that the activation of the Canadian units is an unintended side effect of the Dyle plan. The Canadians were meant to activate to help the struggling Allies once Belgium was overrun.

For v2.2 I think we could activate the Canadian units in April 1940 if Belgium was conquered by the Allies. That means the land units won't be able to get to France in time to keep the Germans at bay. If Belgium is conquered by the Axis then the Canadian units should activate normally (when Brussels falls).

On the other hand I think that if we do this then nobody would try the Dyle plan. Maybe that's not good either.

Do we have any historians who know how the Canadians would support the British war effort. Would they mainly support in the defense early in the war or also in the offense if the Allies were the aggressor.

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Cybvep » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:05 pm

On the other hand I think that if we do this then nobody would try the Dyle plan. Maybe that's not good either.
Oh, I don't know about that. It takes time for the Canadians to arrive, anyway. In 1939 and early 1940 the battles are fought without them.

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Diplomaticus » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:06 pm

The way that Morris does the Dyle Plan, the Canadians are a big influence, since they add a very strong element to the forces the UK can deploy in France from the earliest days of the war. IMO if he had to do it with British forces alone, the wall of units he sets up would be a lot easier to manage.

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Cybvep » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:31 pm

If the Canadians are so important, then it actually makes the situation easier, because if the Dyle Plan proves to be too unbalanced, the devs will simply delay the Canadian activation.

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Morris » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:49 am

Diplomaticus wrote:The way that Morris does the Dyle Plan, the Canadians are a big influence, since they add a very strong element to the forces the UK can deploy in France from the earliest days of the war. IMO if he had to do it with British forces alone, the wall of units he sets up would be a lot easier to manage.

I agree . :)

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Kragdob » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:10 pm

Cybvep wrote:Fortress Europa does not have to be a game-winner, though. You can do fine in 1942-1943, but the situation becomes tough in 1944 and lack of standard Barbarossa makes the Soviets much stronger than they usually are. Also, losing GB is not the end of the world for the Allies - usually they can reconquer the place in 1943-1944, just in time for D-Day, which is easier than one might think when the Germans are being pushed hard in the East. TBH on paper Fortress Europa sounds much more threatening than it really is. It CAN work, but if the intention of Morris is to remove the possibility of a strong 1941 Barbarossa with the Dyle Plan and force the opponent to go for Fortress Europa (presumably he will be preparing for this from the game's start), then his strategy may be effective.
With all respect to Max's skill his AARs had some major flaws. I played 3 games like that and all ended with Axis keeping London, Paris, Rome and Berlin. All you need to do is to secure Axis conquer correctly. If Allies fail to interrupt that, then they are on the losing end.

This what makes the Dyle plan so effective. It makes Axis to do improper Fortress Europa (not enough time) our put the game into standard mode where Axis have little chances to win.
Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Cybvep » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:32 pm

As mentioned before, if the Dyle Plan becomes too OP, the devs should balance it by delaying the Canadian activation. If Morris himself says that the Canadians are important, then it seems obvious that it's the first thing that should be done. However, I still think that we should wait for the conclusion of the games that are currently ongoing. There is no harm in this, anyway.

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Kragdob » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:55 pm

Cybvep wrote:As mentioned before, if the Dyle Plan becomes too OP, the devs should balance it by delaying the Canadian activation. If Morris himself says that the Canadians are important, then it seems obvious that it's the first thing that should be done. However, I still think that we should wait for the conclusion of the games that are currently ongoing. There is no harm in this, anyway.
Canadian activation + Blitzkrieg bonus should be done even as 2.1 patch.
Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few.

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Cybvep » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:24 pm

I thought that there will be no new changes in 2.1?

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Morris » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:49 am

Cybvep wrote:I thought that there will be no new changes in 2.1?
If this will delay the official release of GS 2.1 ,we'd better postpone it to 2.2. :)

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by rkr1958 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:34 pm

I think it's too early to properly assess this strategy. In the hands of Joe, Max or Morris the Dyle plan is most likely a winner; but honestly, most strategies in their hands are winners. What about in the hands of an average or an above average player in a game against an equally matched opponent? Does this strategy help or hurt? Do we have any of those such players willing to team up and play a few games through the fall of France trying both the Dyle and non-Dyle strategies against Sitz and Blitz? If we had enough samples (25 or more), then we could collect statistics to properly characterize the effectiveness of the Dyle plan. And, what about the axis response? If the axis player is worried about this on turn 1 then they could rail an armor corps to the west in position to seize the Belgium fort on turn 2. They could even declare war on Holland on turn 1 to force Belgium to fully mobilize. Though, honestly I wouldn't want to see this type of preventive axis response to become the norm these are 2 things I can think of off-hand to highly discourage the allies from using the Dyle plan.

But; before we make a patch to make the Dyle plan more unattractive (e.g., Canadian activation), I think it would be nice to have the data to properly characterize the impact of this plan.

But; regardless ... 2.1 is fixed and will NOT include any more changes. If necessary, we could produce a post 2.1 release patch to address this; but at this point I'm not convinced that this patch is necessary.

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Morris » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:33 am

rkr1958 wrote:I think it's too early to properly assess this strategy. In the hands of Joe, Max or Morris the Dyle plan is most likely a winner; but honestly, most strategies in their hands are winners. What about in the hands of an average or an above average player in a game against an equally matched opponent? Does this strategy help or hurt? Do we have any of those such players willing to team up and play a few games through the fall of France trying both the Dyle and non-Dyle strategies against Sitz and Blitz? If we had enough samples (25 or more), then we could collect statistics to properly characterize the effectiveness of the Dyle plan. And, what about the axis response? If the axis player is worried about this on turn 1 then they could rail an armor corps to the west in position to seize the Belgium fort on turn 2. They could even declare war on Holland on turn 1 to force Belgium to fully mobilize. Though, honestly I wouldn't want to see this type of preventive axis response to become the norm these are 2 things I can think of off-hand to highly discourage the allies from using the Dyle plan.

But; before we make a patch to make the Dyle plan more unattractive (e.g., Canadian activation), I think it would be nice to have the data to properly characterize the impact of this plan.

But; regardless ... 2.1 is fixed and will NOT include any more changes. If necessary, we could produce a post 2.1 release patch to address this; but at this point I'm not convinced that this patch is necessary.

Yes sir ! But to collect 25 or more samples need some time ! I do agree this patch ( if necessary) to be launched in 2.2 since 2.1 hasbeen delayed too long time . BTW , I am testing a new anti - Dyle plan & Allies give up Dyle plan because of that in a new pbem with Mr Kragdob . Let's see how is it going . :)

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by peterjfrigate » Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:38 am

Do we have any historians who know how the Canadians would support the British war effort. Would they mainly support in the defense early in the war or also in the offense if the Allies were the aggressor.[/quote]

Quick answer: Canada was enthusiastic about offense - if anything they wanted to attack MORE than defend.

First, an important point about cooperation with the UK. Although the Canadians' official history treads a delicate line between asserting independence/sovereignty for military action vs. cooperating with the UK, nevertheless, there are some moments of candor, such as this quote from the official history of the Canadians in WWII: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp ... =1&BfId=27

"the Minister of National Defence recommended that an order-in-council be made placing the Canadian military forces in Great Britain in the position of "serving together" with those of the United Kingdom and stating that such forces would be "in combination" with those of the United Kingdom from the time of embarkation for, and while serving on, the continent of Europe." (p.256).

Obviously, they were working closely, but perhaps more telling is this admission about a preventive invasion of Norway by the UK: "it is possible that the Canadians, if employed at all, might have been used for the main landings" (p.259).

Canada had declared war on Germany, and given its intimacy with the UK, it seems plausible that they would have not only tolerated, but indeed, sought front line participation even in the case of invasion of a neutral european nation. Contrary to the perception that the UK used Canadian troops as canon fodder, the Canadian authorities were actually so frustrated by the lack of Canadian involvement that they lobbied to have 2nd Canadian INF division lead the attack in Dieppe in 1942.

A different issue is the degree of Canadian mobilization - I think Canada only had 2 INF division ready at the start of the war (as CEAW assumes), and it took a long time to build up from that. Certainly a FTR, MECH and INF corps mobilizing in 1939 seems unrealistic, but maybe that worry is making things too complicated.

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Morris » Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:48 pm

peterjfrigate wrote:Do we have any historians who know how the Canadians would support the British war effort. Would they mainly support in the defense early in the war or also in the offense if the Allies were the aggressor

Quick answer: Canada was enthusiastic about offense - if anything they wanted to attack MORE than defend.

First, an important point about cooperation with the UK. Although the Canadians' official history treads a delicate line between asserting independence/sovereignty for military action vs. cooperating with the UK, nevertheless, there are some moments of candor, such as this quote from the official history of the Canadians in WWII: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp ... =1&BfId=27

"the Minister of National Defence recommended that an order-in-council be made placing the Canadian military forces in Great Britain in the position of "serving together" with those of the United Kingdom and stating that such forces would be "in combination" with those of the United Kingdom from the time of embarkation for, and while serving on, the continent of Europe." (p.256).

Obviously, they were working closely, but perhaps more telling is this admission about a preventive invasion of Norway by the UK: "it is possible that the Canadians, if employed at all, might have been used for the main landings" (p.259).

Canada had declared war on Germany, and given its intimacy with the UK, it seems plausible that they would have not only tolerated, but indeed, sought front line participation even in the case of invasion of a neutral european nation. Contrary to the perception that the UK used Canadian troops as canon fodder, the Canadian authorities were actually so frustrated by the lack of Canadian involvement that they lobbied to have 2nd Canadian INF division lead the attack in Dieppe in 1942.

A different issue is the degree of Canadian mobilization - I think Canada only had 2 INF division ready at the start of the war (as CEAW assumes), and it took a long time to build up from that. Certainly a FTR, MECH and INF corps mobilizing in 1939 seems unrealistic, but maybe that worry is making things too complicated.
so your opinion is ? No change for the Canadian troops 's activate ? :D

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Blathergut » Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:12 pm

Everyone who served overseas was volunteer. They were keen to do. Having so few divisions and replacements, compared to UK or US, Canadian commanders were at times a bit more cautious than perhaps High Command (Monty) would have liked, but by no means were they in 'defensive mode.' If High Command saw reason to invade Belgium, the Canadians would have been there, believing the reasons behind such were sound.

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by peterjfrigate » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:21 pm

Blathergut wrote:Everyone who served overseas was volunteer. They were keen to do. Having so few divisions and replacements, compared to UK or US, Canadian commanders were at times a bit more cautious than perhaps High Command (Monty) would have liked, but by no means were they in 'defensive mode.' If High Command saw reason to invade Belgium, the Canadians would have been there, believing the reasons behind such were sound.
Blathergut - I think we are in agreement, but do you think that Canadian mobilization should be changed? The official history (p.77) says that the decision to
expand the army was made in response to Allied collapse in early May. Nevertheless, if the collapse came earlier (i.e. in the Fall of 1939) it sounds plausible that the Canadians could have found the resources anyway.

"...in the emergency the manhood of Canada came forward generously, eager to share the honour and the peril of the moment with the men of the 1st Division, standing in the front line in the United Kingdom. There was no difficulty in filling the ranks of the 3rd and 4th Divisions. The summer months of 1940 brought a flood of recruits second only to that of the previous September. Since the new units began recruiting in the last days of May, enlistments for that month amounted only to 6909; but in June there were 29,319 and in July 29,171. Including officer and nursing sister appointments, a total of 85,102 men and women joined the Canadian Active Service Force during the four months of May, June, July and August."

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Blathergut » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:28 am

I think they would have followed British leads. If the Allies decided to a preemptive attack, they would have gone along with it. But I have no hard evidence to support that. Anti-German sentiment was very high, as it was in WWI. (Where I live has a large German population. It was originally called Berlin; had statues of the Kaiser. Was renamed Kitchener when WWI broke out.) Times must have been tough for them around here then.

As to game balance, that's a different question. I've followed the Dyle Plan games here, but haven't played GS for quite a while, so I have no first-hand comments on the play balance. Perhaps the morale drop could still hit the Allies when Belgium finally does fall, the failure of the Dyle Plan and such. Just how this would be implemented I don't know. Once Germany takes the capital? I think there should be something that hits the Allies as a result of the German successes at some point.

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Morris » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:08 am

Blathergut wrote:
As to game balance, that's a different question. I've followed the Dyle Plan games here, but haven't played GS for quite a while, so I have no first-hand comments on the play balance. Perhaps the morale drop could still hit the Allies when Belgium finally does fall, the failure of the Dyle Plan and such. Just how this would be implemented I don't know. Once Germany takes the capital? I think there should be something that hits the Allies as a result of the German successes at some point.
Yes , it is one of the choice to solve this problem . Also we can just forbid Allies Dow Belgium just like Axis can not Dow Hungury & Romania . :)

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by ncali » Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:28 am

I don't see any reason to forbid the Allies from attacking Belgium, as I don't think it is so far-fetched. If it is eventually decided that something must be done, the biggest change would be to reinstate the Axis blitzkrieg/surprise bonus that makes Allied efficiency drop (perhaps when Brussels falls to the Axis or in the first clear turn in 1940) even if the Allies attacked Belgium first.

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Re: Dyle Plan - what next?

Post by Blathergut » Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:03 pm

yep

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