One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

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Morris
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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Morris » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:18 am

GogTheMild wrote:The sub will be bumped, and undetected. If the DD then sweeps the sub will have the normal chance of being detected; and of evading the subsequent attack.
But The DD will detect the six hex around him ,but won't detect his own hex .(I mean DD stop on a ZZZsub 's hex) ,So ...?

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by richardsd » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:18 am

Morris wrote:
GogTheMild wrote:The sub will be bumped, and undetected. If the DD then sweeps the sub will have the normal chance of being detected; and of evading the subsequent attack.
But The DD will detect the six hex around him ,but won't detect his own hex .(I mean DD stop on a ZZZsub 's hex) ,So ...?
did I read somewhere that the sub bounces

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Morris » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:47 am

richardsd wrote:
Morris wrote:
GogTheMild wrote:The sub will be bumped, and undetected. If the DD then sweeps the sub will have the normal chance of being detected; and of evading the subsequent attack.
But The DD will detect the six hex around him ,but won't detect his own hex .(I mean DD stop on a ZZZsub 's hex) ,So ...?
did I read somewhere that the sub bounces
So did I ! ?

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Kragdob » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:25 am

Morris,

Bouncing means that SUB will be moved to random hex when DD's target is its hex. It is similar to current situation when SUB is bounced when you want to move it on the hex with enemy SUB.

So after sub is bounced DD will be able to detect it since it will be on one of hex adjacent to DD.
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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:14 am

We are coding changes so ships can sail through enemy transports (but not subs since they can fire back and stop movement).

Another minor change we've made is to remake the bias rules for all game types except against the AI. Now the rules will just give a slight PP increase per turn to the side with the bias.

Minor will give a total of 4 PP's per turn to the side
Moderate will give a total of 8 PP's per turn to the side
Large will give a total of 16 PP's per turn to the side.

Germany will get 3, 6, 12 and Italy 1, 2, 4.
USSR will get 2, 4, 8, UK, USA and France will get 1, 2, 4.

Germany starts with 65 PP's per turn. If you want them to start with 68 PP's per turn you select Minor Axis when you start the game. 71 PP's = Moderate Axis, 77 PP's = Large Axis.

All values can be modified in general.txt.

So now it will be possible to give yourself or your opponent an advantage if you want a more balanced game. E. g. you know you are slightly better than your opponent. Play against him with a moderate bias and his side will get 8 PP's extra per turn. That could even the balance between you and give you a real challenge.

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by pk867 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:43 am

Basically this is a handicap system for the players.

For games against the AI is still the same large swings Plus and minus happening to both sides PP's, Oil, Manpower, Total War Effort.

So if you selected Moderate for the Axis against the AI, The Axis got a boost while the Allies were reduced in values mentioned above.

All we did was let the players get more PP's while the other side plays with the Even starting values.

So you can HotSeat the changes and use them in PBEM.

We know this will imbalance the game. So the players want more PP's for one side or the other because of their play or perception.

You do not have to worry about changing any text files between games and such the game file will have the values. Just make sure your

opponent agrees to play with a handicap or you play with the handicap.

You can check to see if a handicap is applied by looking for the game start screen in the Statistics screen .

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Cybvep » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:53 am

Sounds excellent.

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Morris » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:50 pm

Kragdob wrote:Morris,

Bouncing means that SUB will be moved to random hex when DD's target is its hex. It is similar to current situation when SUB is bounced when you want to move it on the hex with enemy SUB.

So after sub is bounced DD will be able to detect it since it will be on one of hex adjacent to DD.
so it seems no different from 2.1 at this point ?

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by pk867 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:00 pm

It is different. Before a surface naval unit could not enter a sub's hex.

Now if the sub is hidden and on sentry ('Zzz') a surface unit can stop in the hex as the sub or move right through the hex.

You will not know as the DD unit's owner that you stopped atop of a sub, because the sub is moved (ie. bounced ) to an empty available hex

and is hidden. If the owner of the DD does a sweep it could find the hidden sub.

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Morris » Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:56 am

pk867 wrote:It is different. Before a surface naval unit could not enter a sub's hex.

Now if the sub is hidden and on sentry ('Zzz') a surface unit can stop in the hex as the sub or move right through the hex.

You will not know as the DD unit's owner that you stopped atop of a sub, because the sub is moved (ie. bounced ) to an empty available hex

and is hidden. If the owner of the DD does a sweep it could find the hidden sub.
ok , I get it . Thank you ! Paul

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:31 am

We made a few other minor changes. One is a one time event regarding German Volksturm units spawning in the German force pool once Allied units enter a core German hex. This is similar to the Russian strategic reserve and the UK HG spawning in case of a Sealion. The value is currently set to 6, but we may change it.

/* German Volksturm reserve units spawned the turn Allied units enter German territory */
NUMBER_OF_GERMAN_VOLKSTURM_UNITS 6 /* 0..99 Number of garrisons that will be placed in the force pool */

Some map changes are done too in Belgium to make it more accurate. We added the Albert Canal and shortened the Schelde river. This is how the area looks like now:

Image

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:36 am

I've tried the 1940 scenario first turn of Case Yellow numerous times. I easily take both Holland and Belgium in one turn, but you need to use a slightly different attack strategy.

One reason is that Antwerp is closer to Germany and access to the city is partly blocked by the Dutch garrison south of Hague. The Albert canal also protects the Belgian garrison adjacent to Liege. So you might want to use an armor unit to finish it off, leaving space for other units to get across and attack Liege and Brussels.

You need to use your air units differently too. Now you need to bombard all the Dutch and Belgian units so you make sure they retreat or do as little damage as possible. I'm sure the location of the Axis air units can be improved so you can optimize the attacks. It seems that the Allies will only intercept airstrikes on Brussels so you might want to let your fighters bombard Brussels so your bombers can attack elsewhere without being intercepted.

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:40 am

Lille in France is more exposed now so the map changes would mean that the Allied player has to defend differently in France. The Schelde river is shortened and has the bend towards Antwerp. It will fall to the Axis on turn 1 for sure so you don't get a river to defend behind to delay the Axis advance into France.

Now you might have to defend in clear terrain or withdraw to the Somme river, thus giving up a lot of terrain. The end result is that France might fall 1 turn earlier than before, at least with a sitz strategy. Testing will show how things go.

That is not a bad thing because quite a few Axis players struggle with getting to Paris in June.

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:59 am

We also managed to alter the code so transports can't block movement of enemy naval units. It looks like this now:
Image

Here you see that the Skagerrak is blocked by a German DD and transport. Still the British BB can sail past it. The DD has ZOC (4 per hex) so it will limit how far the BB can sail past the blockade.

So the transport actually doesn't work as a blockade unit and that is what people wanted. :)

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by petertodd » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:35 am

Here's another map change to consider if it's not too late. Moscow is protected by solid forrest that is generally at least 4 hexes thick. With the rivers this of course makes Moscow very difficult to capture in 1941, which IRL the Axis very nearly did despite diversion of panzers north and south delaying the assault on Moscow. When I look at the map for Gary Grigsby's War In The East, which I presume is well researched, I see much less solid forest around Moscow. In particular, around Tula and south of the River is almost completely clear. East of Moscow has many clear hexes also. Also the Moskva river is a minor river, most of which aren't shown in CEaW. So maybe the forest and possibly rivers around Moscow should be reduced? (If you don't have access to WITE you could check AARs on the Matrix forums--here's a link if it works: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.as ... age=4&key= )

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Cybvep » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:26 pm

I love the transport changes. Most TP exploits should be gone now.

In regard to terrain changes, it seems that the biggest change is the fact that Lille will be easier to take. This will help the Axis a bit, but the Allied players will probably adjust quickly, so I'm not sure whether the impact will be that big. I'm more interested how the changes affect Sitzkrieg - is it harder to take Belgium now? About Moscow, I think that anything that gives the Axis a better chance of threatening Moscow in 1941 is good and supply and rail rules already make Barbarossa challenging. We want to see aggressive fighting in that area in more games, right?

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:35 pm

Here is a link showing the forest coverage in Europe:
http://www.efi.int/portal/virtual_libra ... of_europe/

You see that in Russia you have lots of contiguous terrain with 50% forest coverage or higher. Since Russia is such a big country you rarely get a detailed map of particular areas. Smaller countries have much more detailed maps.

As a rule of thumb we try to add forest into a hex if it has more than 50% forest coverage. If the hex is hilly then rough or montain is picked instead since we don't have a terrain called forested rough. The most restrictive terrain is selected.

The maps you're linking to are of a different scale. The games show battalion and regiment sized units while our map is used for corps size units. Therefore you see much more varied terrain on such maps.

We had to make some approximations on the map. E. g. the north and south are quite distorted due to the real world being a globe and not flat. The map is quite compressed in the north to fit in the important areas. That is ok because it works GAME wise. E. g. the map should not have any link between Finland and Sweden. Gulf of Bothnia should have gone further north. But by doing so you would have created an "island" of Norway and Sweden and that's not correct at all.

The forested areas in Russia e. g. near Moscow simulates quite well the battle outcome. Forest in GS does not hinder infantry units very much. It's mostly vehicles that can't move as fast. So Moscow is certainly possible to capture with infantry units using the terrain as is. What you won't see is armor encircements of the Moscow area because it's forested.

I feel that trying to alter the map here will just be another guess that might be as bad as the current guess. To do this more accurately then you need more accurate maps of the vegetation in this area. Those detailed maps aren't easy to get access to.

For e. g. Belarus and Ukraine you can get better maps because these countries are smaller. For Russia you often get maps showing ALL of Russia and then you get poor detail.

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:51 pm

Cybvep wrote:I love the transport changes. Most TP exploits should be gone now.

In regard to terrain changes, it seems that the biggest change is the fact that Lille will be easier to take. This will help the Axis a bit, but the Allied players will probably adjust quickly, so I'm not sure whether the impact will be that big. I'm more interested how the changes affect Sitzkrieg - is it harder to take Belgium now? About Moscow, I think that anything that gives the Axis a better chance of threatening Moscow in 1941 is good and supply and rail rules already make Barbarossa challenging. We want to see aggressive fighting in that area in more games, right?
My experience from testing the 1940 scenario is that you can easily take Belgium and Holland in 1 turn, but you need to adjust how you attack compared to before. One example is that you need to use your mech and armor units to attack in hexes not close to France to ensure you kill the defender. If you get too greedy and not make sure you finish off the defenders in each hex you might get into a situation where your units are blocked from moving into hexes where you can finish off the next unit. So keeping some air units in reserve to finish off 1 step defenders in case you get unlucky is certainly important.

I never had any problems taking both capitals and getting an armor unit all the way to Ghent. I had to try 2-3 times before I found the right way of doing it. So practising will probably be necessary even for elite players.

I think the blitz attack will probably see a bigger difference. I certainly see situations where Brussels can survive the first turn even if attacked in clear weather. One reason is that the Liege hex is almost impossible to kill before it's reduced from fortress to city. Bypassing Liege is not easy either.
So with blitz attack you might have to use turn 1 to finish off Holland and get Antwerp. On turn 2 of the invasion you focus upon Brussels. It's easier to get into Belgium via Antwerp now since the forested terrain is further east. But Liege is a major stumbling block. This is exactly what the real Germans faced. The Sichelschnitt plan had to deal with how to cross the Albert canal in order to take Brussels before the Allies could move into Belgium. Eben Emael protected this canal so well so they had to neutralize this fortress for Case Yellow to succeed.

I answered in another reply about the forests near Moscow. I think Axis players who start a May 1941 Barbarossa definitely have a fair chance taking Moscow, even with forests around it. You need Luftwaffe support to grind your way through the forest terrain. By doing so you won't have the capability to also get past the Don river. The real Germans were faced with either going after Moscow or cutting off Kiev in August 1941. Hitler decided the latter, thus delaying Typhoon by 4-6 weeks. If your main target is Moscow then I'm sure the Axis player can take it. What you can't normally do is to both take Moscow and get to Rostov in 1941.

I see a lot of battles near Moscow in 1941 in my games. Whether it falls or not depends on how well the Russians decide to defend it. I've seen Allied players placing a lot of corps units in front of Moscow. Then the Germans can kill these units and weaken the Russians considerably. Because of the forests you take some damage and need aggressive use of air strikes so you also bleed the German manpower and oil pools. Therefore many Axis players just screen the Moscow area and focus on the south.

So it's not like the current terrain makes it too hard to take Moscow.

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:56 pm

I'm a bit afraid of making it even easier to take one of the major cities in GS, i. e. Moscow. It's the norm in GS to start Barbarossa as early as May 1941. So you have 2 extra turns compared to the real Barbarossa. We also see the speed how the panzers can run. So players have no problems getting to Rostov and good players can get as far as Maikop and Stalingrad. Good players even capture Leningrad and or Moscow.

My experience is that good Axis players gain more territory in Russia in 1941 than the real Germans did. Maybe the real Germans would have taken Moscow and Leningrad if they could start Barbarossa in May 1941? Who knows.

I would like to see the capture of Leningrad and Moscow in 1941 as a major achievement, showing the mark of a great strategy. It should not be something that average Joe could do it almost every game.

I feel that right now taking Moscow and Leningrad is about as difficult as it should be.

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Re: One Stop List of Changes for 2.2?

Post by Cybvep » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:25 pm

Maybe the real Germans would have taken Moscow and Leningrad if they could start Barbarossa in May 1941? Who knows.
Except that starting Barbarossa on the original date, i.e. in May, wasn't really an option because of weather conditions that year which still caused various logistical difficulties. Weather wasn't very cooperative. There is a myth that only Balkan endeavour delayed Barbarossa, but the truth is that the impact of these operations was very small, as the invasion would still have to be postponed. That myth used to be very popular in all those "what if" scenarios, but even Wikipedia now lists the weather conditions as one of the reasons for the postponement of Barbarossa.

I always find it funny that people are looking for one reason why the Germans didn't manage to take Moscow/Leningrad/whatever. There is always sth popular here - winter clothes, Kiev pocket, the Balkan Campaign, more aggressive Finns etc. Whenever I hear "If only X happened (...)", I roll my eyes. The reality is a bit more complex than that.

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