GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

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Peter Stauffenberg
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GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:55 pm

I have been playing around with unit limits and made them dependent upon tech levels in industry and organization.
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1939 1
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1940 2
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1941 3
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1942 4
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1943 5
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1944 6
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1945 8

To this limit is added the tech modifier.

Tech modifier = tech industry + 2/3 * tech organization

Then I got the following result for each scenario:
Image
Last edited by Peter Stauffenberg on Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Unit limit possible modification

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:02 pm

The old limits were:
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1939 3
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1940 5
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1941 7
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1942 9
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1943 12
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1944 15
UNIT_TYPE_BUILD_LIMIT_1945 20

So for Germany you see a slight increase in 1939 and 1942. For the Allies you see lower values and that should make it a bit harder to create huge air unit blobs. This is a soft increase so it might be the Allies will spend quite a bit of PP's for the overuse.

These are the overuse penalties:
UNIT_OVERUSE_PP_PERCENTAGE 10 /* Increase in percent per overuse level */
UNIT_OVERUSE_OIL_PERCENTAGE 10 /* Increase in percent per overuse level */

1.05 ^ 5 = 28% higher if 5% per overuse level
1.1 ^ 5 = 61% higher if 10% per overuse level
Last edited by Peter Stauffenberg on Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Unit limit possible modification

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:05 pm

I'm also releasing fighter units from build limit just like garrisons, corps and destroyers. Fighters are mainly for defense / escort and that means you won't be limited to how many you have. E. g. Germany will have to use fighters in the west, east and Med at the same time from 1942.

UNIT_LIMIT_FIGHTER 0 /* 0 = No. 1 = yes */
Last edited by Peter Stauffenberg on Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unit limit possible modification

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:10 pm

With lower unit limits and a higher cost for overuse I think we will see less of the ahistorical games where players use to specialization. E. g. USA only builds strategic bombers and tanks while UK only builds tactical bombers and mechs.

That strategy is feasible since you can put tech focus in the areas you specialize on and you can build hordes of these units only. That means you can get a tech advantage as well since the Germans can't specialize since they can't rely upon Italy to deal with some of the unit types.

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Re: GS v3.0 slight modifications test

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:53 pm

I also added to the slight modifications the altered 1939.scn file so turn 1 Dyle is much harder. In addition Holland will always spawn at reduced strength if Belgium is attacked by the Allies. That means the Germans can run into Holland on turn 3 if the Allies do a turn 2 Dyle.

The bug fix for AI game convoy movement is also included.
Last edited by Peter Stauffenberg on Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GS v3.0 slight modifications test

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:07 pm

I also altered techs slightly to ensure that air units even suffer losses later in the war when they get higher survivability.

Radar tech 2 increases air defense from 1 to 2 for cities and resources. That means FLAK units in cities will be slightly more efficient.

Radar tech 6 increases air defense from 1 to 2 for cities and resources.

Artillery tech 6 increases air defense from 0 to 1 for corps and mech units. That means they can get a total of +3 air defense just like armor units. These additions can be seen as FLAK units attached to the mother units.

Strategic operations tech 2 reduces survivability from +2 to +1 for strategic bombers
Strategic operations tech 6 reduces survivabililty from +2 to +1 for fighters, tactical bombers and strategic bombers

Radar, artillery and strategic operations tech 6 are quite hard to get and you probably get them very late in the war.

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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:23 pm

I also looked into unit XP and thought it could be interesting to change the unit stats more from XP. In the current version you only increase quality and survivability. Germany benefitted from having a lot of experienced forces early in the war, especially against USSR and USA.

Now a lot of values can give XP bonus. These are the values I came up with:
/* XP needed for bonus to several unit stat values */
EXPERIENCE_PER_AIR_COMBAT_INCREASE 50 /*How much experience needed to increase unit air combat +1*/
AIR_COMBAT_OFFSET 0 /* 0 or 25. 0 = XP increase at XP level 2 and 4 */
EXPERIENCE_PER_ANTI_TANK_INCREASE 50 /*How much experience needed to increase unit anti tank +1*/
ANTI_TANK_OFFSET 25 /* 0 or 25. 25 = XP increase at XP level 1 and 3 */
EXPERIENCE_PER_GROUND_ATTACK_INCREASE 50 /*How much experience needed to increase unit ground attack +1*/
GROUND_ATTACK_OFFSET 0 /* 0 or 25. 0 = XP increase at XP level 2 and 4 */
EXPERIENCE_PER_GROUND_DEFENSE_INCREASE 50 /*How much experience needed to increase unit ground defense +1*/
GROUND_DEFENSE_OFFSET 25 /* 0 or 25. 25 = XP increase at XP level 1 and 3 */
EXPERIENCE_PER_NAVAL_COMBAT_INCREASE 50 /*How much experience needed to increase unit naval combat +1*/
NAVAL_COMBAT_OFFSET 0 /* 0 or 25. 0 = XP increase at XP level 2 and 4 */
EXPERIENCE_PER_QUALITY_INCREASE 25 /*How much experience needed to increase unit quality +1*/
QUALITY_OFFSET 0 /* 0 or 25. Increase happens at XP level 1, 2, 3 and 4 since base increase is 25 */
EXPERIENCE_PER_SHOCK_INCREASE 50 /*How much experience needed to increase unit shock +1*/
SHOCK_OFFSET 25 /* 0 or 25. 25 means increase happens at XP level 1 and 3 instead of 2 and 4*/
EXPERIENCE_PER_SUB_COMBAT_INCREASE 50 /*How much experience needed to increase unit sub combat +1*/
SUB_COMBAT_OFFSET 0 /* 0 or 25. 0 = XP increase at XP level 2 and 4 */
EXPERIENCE_PER_STRATEGIC_COMBAT_INCREASE 50 /*How much experience needed to increase unit strategic combat +1*/
STRATEGIC_COMBAT_OFFSET 0 /* 0 or 25 0 = XP increase at XP level 2 and 4 */
EXPERIENCE_PER_SURVIVABILITY_INCREASE 50 /*How much experience needed to increase unit survivability +1*/
SURVIVABILITY_OFFSET 25 /* 0 or 25. 25 = XP increase at XP level 1 and 3 */

This means the following.

Each XP level bonus gives +1 to the ability before modifiers.

Air combat: XP level 2 and 4 (applies to air units and carriers)
Anti tank: XP level 1 and 3 (applies to air and ground units)
Ground attack: XP level 2 and 4 (applies to ground units, battleships, destroyers and tactical bombers)
Ground defense: XP level 1 and 3 (applies to ground units)
Naval combat: XP level 2 and 4 (applies to air and naval units)
Quality: XP level 1, 2, 3 and 4 (applies to all units)
Shock attack: XP level 1 and 3 (applies to all units)
Strategic attack: XP level 2 and 4 (applies to air units)
Sub combat: XP level 2 and 4 (applies to air and naval units)
Survivability: XP level 1 and 3 (applies to all units)

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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:36 pm

These updates are available for testing if you send me a PM with your email address. The version will be modified to v3.01.

Please notice that you will get checksum errors if you play against people who don't install the updates. The updates will NOT invalidate any existing save games.

I expect the ones receiving these updates to report back to me how they feel these changes affect the flow of th game and the balance. The values I have in this version WILL be changed before they will be made public so if you want a stable version with no changes I propose you stay on v3.00. It can take some time before GS v3.01 will be fine tuned so it can be released to everybody.

I have a feeling the changes will slightly shift the balance towards the Germans, at least initially. The unit stat changes from XP is the main reason. German forces will get battle hardened before the Allied units and thus become slightly stronger. US forces will start appearing in 1942, but will be of rookie strength. So their initial encounters against German units will become difficult unless the US forces have overwhelming numbers and at least air superiority locally.

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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by Cybvep » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:49 pm

Interesting. Most of this will benefit the Axis in the early years, but a secondary effect is that it will be much harder to build many subs as Italy. I expect mass subs strategy to become less common... which is actually quite good. Germany will also be able to start building the 4th sub without penalties in 1939.

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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by petertodd » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:23 am

Overall these are probably beneficial changes. However, I still think the unit limits don't seem quite right. The USSR would be way too severely limited--they couldn't ever build as many limited units as the US or UK, and could build only barely more than Italy. It seems to me that unit limits should be based more on the size of the economy (i.e., PP income, and maybe manpower). This just seems more natural than industry and org techs. PP Income grows over the course of the war and takes into account industry tech, so it may be less necessary to make adjustments to the formula each year. Maybe something as simple a PP income divided by 15 (or so), with some adjustment for average convoy size. This would bite US, UK and Italy hard, but I think that would be a good thing, since it would really reduce US/UK specialization. This would prevent Italy from ever building very many limited units, which is also good. At the end of the war when the German economy is collapsing, they would not be able to build many new ARMs (not that they could afford it anyway). I don't know if this would be too difficult to program. Thanks for all the good work on this game.

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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:44 am

Only one way to find out.....test.

I look at the number of units in each scenario and the Russians are within the limits there except for mechs. 1942 seems to be the toughest year for them.

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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by Morris » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:32 pm

petertodd wrote:Overall these are probably beneficial changes. However, I still think the unit limits don't seem quite right. The USSR would be way too severely limited--they couldn't ever build as many limited units as the US or UK, and could build only barely more than Italy. It seems to me that unit limits should be based more on the size of the economy (i.e., PP income, and maybe manpower). This just seems more natural than industry and org techs. PP Income grows over the course of the war and takes into account industry tech, so it may be less necessary to make adjustments to the formula each year. Maybe something as simple a PP income divided by 15 (or so), with some adjustment for average convoy size. This would bite US, UK and Italy hard, but I think that would be a good thing, since it would really reduce US/UK specialization. This would prevent Italy from ever building very many limited units, which is also good. At the end of the war when the German economy is collapsing, they would not be able to build many new ARMs (not that they could afford it anyway). I don't know if this would be too difficult to program. Thanks for all the good work on this game.
Yes , I do agree with you . Although I think game is a little bit unbalance . But to adjust like this is too unhistoric . The production of US & USSR would not be able to be less than Germany . Not only tanks but also Mech & tac & STRs ! At least they should be equal as Germany !

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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by Cybvep » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:22 pm

The Allies still have a PP advantage. It gets higher with time and the German tech advantage won't last forever, either.

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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by supermax » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:26 am

Wow borger!

I am amazed and pleased you considered those slight changes.

I have a mirror game going on right now with crazygunner i believe he would like to use the modification, even if we are at the beginning of 1941.

In return for this i would do an aar, this is a newer version of my fortress europa and craz is also doing one!

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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by supermax » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:27 am

The fighter no-limit will be especially importamt in a fortress europa game where you also have some middle east oil...

Very interesting to try this out.

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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by Morris » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:53 am

supermax wrote:The fighter no-limit will be especially importamt in a fortress europa game where you also have some middle east oil...

Very interesting to try this out.
I have to remind you that Allies also should be easy to produce much more FTRs ! Will Axis be able to afford the pps to repair & the fuel they will cost ? Anyway if it happen in late 1944 or 1945 , it will be ok ! :)

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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by Kragdob » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:40 am

Morris wrote:Yes , I do agree with you . Although I think game is a little bit unbalance . But to adjust like this is too unhistoric . The production of US & USSR would not be able to be less than Germany . Not only tanks but also Mech & tac & STRs ! At least they should be equal as Germany !
Morris,

This is not production ability, but the cost for the units. In early years it can simulate German higher experience in using mobile units (so they cost less = you pay normal price, while Allies must pay more).
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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by Peter Stauffenberg » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:19 am

supermax wrote:Wow borger!

I am amazed and pleased you considered those slight changes.

I have a mirror game going on right now with crazygunner i believe he would like to use the modification, even if we are at the beginning of 1941.

In return for this i would do an aar, this is a newer version of my fortress europa and craz is also doing one!
PM me your email address and Crazygunner can PM me his email address. Then I can send you the modifications. Particularly interesting will be the changes to unit strength from experience. That alone can add quite some variety.

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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by supermax » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:53 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:
supermax wrote:Wow borger!

I am amazed and pleased you considered those slight changes.

I have a mirror game going on right now with crazygunner i believe he would like to use the modification, even if we are at the beginning of 1941.

In return for this i would do an aar, this is a newer version of my fortress europa and craz is also doing one!
PM me your email address and Crazygunner can PM me his email address. Then I can send you the modifications. Particularly interesting will be the changes to unit strength from experience. That alone can add quite some variety.
Ok. Our games are on pause right now craz is on vacation.

Well see what he says when he gets back.

Interestingly enough we are both doing a fortress europa, but differently. He is doing the spanish gambit after french conquest, while i am going for middle east oil after french vichy.

1942 is going to be interesting on both side, but i suspect that my version of the fortress europa will be very different than the one craz will do.

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Re: GS v3.01 slight modifications for testing

Post by Kragdob » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:18 am

I think this one will change game a little bit in favor of Germany. +1 survivability and +1 defense for just 1 star is a huge bonus for ground units. +1 survivability for SUB is also a big change. Now 1 or 2 stars (I rarely see more) really means something.

I didn't test that yet but SS/Guards units will now have +2 for attack and +2 for defense due to this change. I agree but on the other side if Red Army manages to produce few more Guards units above 4 they get they will have a powerfull force. I don't know if it changes anything for the fate of the Germany though.

I will try to adjust our current game with Morris wiht that and let you know how it worked.
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