Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

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panda2
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Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by panda2 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:25 pm

p.10 "Irregular light cavary in any formation are considered skirmishers for movement and combat"

On p.29 on Reaction moves under "Default actions not requiring a Cohesion Test:" we have listed "Evade if light cavalry in single rank". Since there is no other evade response listed for cavalry in this section, I am right in thinking that irregular light cavalry not in single file cannot voluntarely choose to evade and must choose countercharge as a response if charged by cavalry?

On p30 "Light cavalry skirmishers may only freely counter-charge other light cavalry skirmishers." and under actions requiring a cohesion test "Light cavalry in skirmish formation must test if they wish to counter-charge non-skirmishing cavalry. They will evade if the test is failed."

Am I right in thinking that Steady or Disordered irregular light cavalry not in a single rank must contercharge other light cavalry skirmishers and that if charged by non skirmishing cavalry they must try to countercharge, but that if they fail the CT, they must evade?

Andy D

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by hazelbark » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:04 pm

Not all Light Cavalry is irregular.

So French Hussars ard Drilled Light Cavarly.

They can evade if in a single rank line.

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by panda2 » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:22 pm

Apologies Hazelbark, I didn't make myself very clear.

I understand that not all light cavalry are irregular, I'm just trying to get my head around what difference it make being irregular light cavalry and therefore considered skirmishers regardless of formation. Once I understand that I may then move onto trying to sort out in my head irregular light cavalry that are also impetuous, which looks fun!

Andy D

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by deadtorius » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:16 pm

Think of the cossacks as being similar to the skirmishing foot, if they are not in single line they don't evade as skirmishers.
If they are charged though sounds like they have to test to counter charge an non-light cav, they can only freely charge other Light cavalry Skirmishers.
Looks like if you are not in skirmish line then you have to stand and take it if some heavier non-skirmishing type cavalry charges you. Guess the downside is that if charged you stand where you are, and if you lose well the enemy is right where he wants to be. Counter charging at least puts the point of impact somewhere out front of your line.

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by terrys » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:53 pm

This probably needs an claridiation:

Page 30:
"light cavalry skirmishers may only freely counter-charge other light cavalry skirmishers"
and
"light cavalry in skirmish formation must test if they wish to counter-charge non-skirmishing cavalry. They will evade if the test is failed"
From a clarifiacation point of view we should add "or if the test is not taken" to the end of the 2nd statement.

Alternatively (and probably more sensibly) updating the last bullet point on page 29 to:
"Evade if light cavalry are irregular or are in single rank"
would be more understandable.

There is a major difference between the 2 methods:
> The first update would mean that skirmishing cavalry can evade everyone except other skirmishing cavalry!
> The 2nd update would mean that skirmishing cavalry can evade everone !

I'll have a word with Mike to agree exactly which of the 2 we mean (and want).

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by SirGarnet » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:14 am

Has which been decided?

panda2
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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by panda2 » Tue May 22, 2012 1:07 pm

terrys wrote:This probably needs an claridiation:

Page 30:
"light cavalry skirmishers may only freely counter-charge other light cavalry skirmishers"
and
"light cavalry in skirmish formation must test if they wish to counter-charge non-skirmishing cavalry. They will evade if the test is failed"
From a clarifiacation point of view we should add "or if the test is not taken" to the end of the 2nd statement.

Alternatively (and probably more sensibly) updating the last bullet point on page 29 to:
"Evade if light cavalry are irregular or are in single rank"
would be more understandable.

There is a major difference between the 2 methods:
> The first update would mean that skirmishing cavalry can evade everyone except other skirmishing cavalry!
> The 2nd update would mean that skirmishing cavalry can evade everone !

I'll have a word with Mike to agree exactly which of the 2 we mean (and want).
Since there doesn't appear to be anything in the errata to change the bullet on p.29 can we take it that the official decision is that the correct way to handle irregular light cavalry not in a single line is the first method suggested?

Andy D

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by terrys » Wed May 30, 2012 5:28 pm

Since there doesn't appear to be anything in the errata to change the bullet on p.29 can we take it that the official decision is that the correct way to handle irregular light cavalry not in a single line is the first method suggested?
Yes.

Light Cavalry in single rank are probably too flexible anyway.
If you approach them with your own cavalry in single rank, they will now either have to retire out if charge reach or counter charge.

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by marco » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:10 am

it's still not clear for me
how act irregular light cavalry ?
i don't find definitive decision from the rule conceptor
and first in the rule
in my ottoman army i have some yoruk
irregular light cavalry impetuous
thanks to a clarification i know that
- they are impetuous only on other sk
- they can rear support cavalry
- they fight with less dice
- they are considered as in sk formation when shooted at

but
who can i charge without a test
who can i countercharge without a test
can i charge with a group with a single test ?
ect ...

why is there no summary of all clarifications who sometimes look more than a new rule ?
is irregular light cavalry the best representation for the sipahi ?
i understand for the cossack, but ottoman delis often fight

thanks for an answer
la bretagne ça vous gagne...
...mais ça fait pas gagner !

soit on les brûle ,et on venge jeanne,
soit on les defonce à la mitraille et on venge la vielle garde.
christophe artus

http://marcofwar.unblog.fr/
http://marcofwar2.blogspot.fr/

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by BrettPT » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:46 am

they are impetuous only on other sk
Not quite, they are also impetuous against wavering or broken troops, or if they would contact the flank/rear of enemy (pg 28)
they can rear support cavalry
And also provide flank support to all troops (pg 56)
they fight with less dice
yes, 4 dice only I'm afraid, with a -POA for being skirmishers (ie they need 5+ to hit cavalry, 4+ to hit artillery & infantry, 6+ to hit a square) (pg 56 &58)
they are considered as in sk formation when shooted at
No, only infantry skirmishers count as a skirmish target (errata and new QRS)
who can i charge without a test
flanks/rear, skirmishers and wavering/broken troops (who, being impetuous, you must charge unless you CMT to hold) (pg 28)
who can i countercharge without a test
Only other cavalry skirmishers. You must pass a CT to countercharge any other cavalry (and evade if the test is failed) (pg 30)
can i charge with a group with a single test
No, units cannot move as a brigade group into contact (pg 38)
why is there no summary of all clarifications who sometimes look more than a new rule
hopefully we will get some more official errata published in due course
is irregular light cavalry the best representation for the sipahi
I think so. It is a bit of a bummer however having to pay an extra 2 points for the lances . I would have preferred that they treat Turkish irregular cavalry like cossacks - they may be equipped with lances but were not proficient in using them in formation - so don't give them a lancer bonus and don't charge them 2 points for the lances. The list authors haven't gone this way, which makes (in my view) Sipahis and Dellis overpriced compared to regular LC. Take minimum Sipahis and Dellis, and buy the Yoruks if you want more irreg LC.

Cheers
Brett

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by marco » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:55 pm

thanks for this detailed answer
start to think that the ottoman in this rule are not very good...

i realize now that my infantry can charge at 4 mu as unreformed while reformed can charge me at 6 mu ???
la bretagne ça vous gagne...
...mais ça fait pas gagner !

soit on les brûle ,et on venge jeanne,
soit on les defonce à la mitraille et on venge la vielle garde.
christophe artus

http://marcofwar.unblog.fr/
http://marcofwar2.blogspot.fr/

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by Blathergut » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:48 pm

Yes, a different charge range. But it's not as horrible as it seems. I've been fighting Austrians who are also unreformed. The fact that they are 8pts versus French 10pts is a large bonus. I am always fighting large units (-1 hit) that are beefed up with artillery (2 shots while in range of French cavalry vs. my reformed units reduced to 1 shot when in range of Austrian horse) or skirmishers with rifles. It usually seems like the unreformed infantry has the advantage!

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by marco » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:27 pm

in emperors and eagles
i realize that
sipahi
djellis
are conscript and not irregular
is it an evolution which mean that a change will be done in TON ?

if i well undestand light cavlry, conscript act as other cavalry ?
la bretagne ça vous gagne...
...mais ça fait pas gagner !

soit on les brûle ,et on venge jeanne,
soit on les defonce à la mitraille et on venge la vielle garde.
christophe artus

http://marcofwar.unblog.fr/
http://marcofwar2.blogspot.fr/

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by BrettPT » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:33 pm

I haven't received my copy of E & E yet, but yes, Djellis & Sipahis (except Sipahis of the Porte) are irregular in ToN.
I agree that the Turkish army will struggle on table ... not stopping me painting one though!

Conscript LC are the same points as irregulars, but in my view are miles better. Their main disadvantage is 1 dice for CTs (which can be mitigated by rear support) but against that they do no suffer the other handicaps that skirmisher LC have (hard to charge and bad in combat).

Is there an Ottoman army list in E&E that doesn't have to take many irreg LC??

Cheers
Brett

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by hazelbark » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:07 am

marco wrote:start to think that the ottoman in this rule are not very good...

i realize now that my infantry can charge at 4 mu as unreformed while reformed can charge me at 6 mu ???
You are correcct on charge ranges but shooting matters more.

And i'd be rather worried if the Ottomans were good in this period. As I don't remember them at Austerlitz, Eylau or Waterloo.
I will settle for them being fun and colorful.

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by MikeHorah » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:17 am

hazelbark wrote:
marco wrote:start to think that the ottoman in this rule are not very good...

i realize now that my infantry can charge at 4 mu as unreformed while reformed can charge me at 6 mu ???
You are correcct on charge ranges but shooting matters more.

And i'd be rather worried if the Ottomans were good in this period. As I don't remember them at Austerlitz, Eylau or Waterloo.
I will settle for them being fun and colorful.
Yes well notwithstanding the tournament culture of pitting un-likes and un-contemporaries (sic) versus each other I hope we have not - even by accident - made the Ottomans really comparable to the main European armies at this time! They are there for completeness (and of course fun and colour). They did confront the Russians in the Balkans and along the Western Euxine Sea ( sorry Black sea - my ancient roots are showing!) and in Egypt and Syria the French fought them although the Mamlukes are not quite the same as the Ottomans.But to have left them out would have been a dereliction even if they were a bit of a sideshow. :D :D :D

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by marco » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:50 pm

I hope we have not - even by accident - made the Ottomans really comparable to the main European armies at this time! They are there for completeness (and of course fun and colour). They did confront the Russians in the Balkans and along the Western Euxine Sea ( sorry Black sea - my ancient roots are showing!) and in Egypt and Syria the French fought them
maybe you should have told this before i buy the fig :mrgreen:
a bit strange
i bought your books, an army, paint it
and know i learn that normaly, if the rule is good, the army is not good .... :lol:

in my opinion army point rule must do that all armies get his chance
i'd be rather worried if the Ottomans were good in this period
ottoman empire survive nearly a century more with his poor (in your opinion) army
maybe not too bad ?
in emperors and eagles
i realize that
sipahi
djellis
are conscript and not irregular
is it an evolution which mean that a change will be done in TON ?
la bretagne ça vous gagne...
...mais ça fait pas gagner !

soit on les brûle ,et on venge jeanne,
soit on les defonce à la mitraille et on venge la vielle garde.
christophe artus

http://marcofwar.unblog.fr/
http://marcofwar2.blogspot.fr/

terrys
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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by terrys » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:13 am

maybe you should have told this before i buy the fig
a bit strange
i bought your books, an army, paint it
and know i learn that normaly, if the rule is good, the army is not good ....

in my opinion army point rule must do that all armies get his chance
I don't think the Ottoan army is as bad as Mike states. In fact I think they come out better in these rules than they do in most others. I'd certainly like to field one but up until now I've only used it with 'stand-in' figures. I'd be too embarassed to field it in public with incorrect figures.

The points values are pretty balanced (I think), so should give ALL armies a chance agaisnt an opponent of equal points.

marco
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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by marco » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:49 pm

thanks for your answer
that's what i hope
la bretagne ça vous gagne...
...mais ça fait pas gagner !

soit on les brûle ,et on venge jeanne,
soit on les defonce à la mitraille et on venge la vielle garde.
christophe artus

http://marcofwar.unblog.fr/
http://marcofwar2.blogspot.fr/

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Re: Irregular Light Cavalry not in a Single Line

Post by bahdahbum » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:47 pm

Marco come to Brussels in January , you are welcome to try your infidels ottomans !

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