Foot Artillery Charged:???

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Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by Blathergut » Mon May 28, 2012 10:23 pm

Could someone clarify for this foggy olde brain:

A. Foot artillery charged. This causes a CMT, yes? If failed, guns abandonned. Does this mean immediately? Or, if enemy is 4MU+ out, do I get to shoot before abandonning?

B. If I pass the CMT, does that mean I get to shoot and then abandon guns if the enemy charge continues in?

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by SirGarnet » Mon May 28, 2012 10:46 pm

A. Fail the Cohesion Test and you abandon without shooting.

B . Yes if you pass the Cohesion Test. If the assault is halted by fire, you can stay at the guns and shoot in the fire phase.

Cohesion Test, not CMT (w/ reference to the below mix-up in abbreviations)
Last edited by SirGarnet on Wed May 30, 2012 8:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by Chasseur » Tue May 29, 2012 11:32 am

Hi,

You have a couple of choices:
1. For unlimbered Artillery you can automatically take refuge behind an Infantry unit within 2MU (p.29). In this circumstance there is no Cohesion Test (CT), you drop a cohesion level from voluntarily retiring (p.47) and there is no defensive fire from the Artillery.

2. If the enemy assault starts from more than 4MU away, then the Artillery can take a CT to attempt to shoot at medium range before retiring (p.30).

If they fail the CT, then they do not fire. They lose 1 cohesion level if assaulted by Infantry, or 2 cohesion levels if assaulted by Cavalry (p.47) and retire to an Infantry unit within 2MU. I assume that if they are assaulted by both Infantry and Cavalry then they would lose 2 cohesion levels. This retirement is "forced to retire by failing a test".

If the CT is successful, they fire at medium range. If the assault is stopped, then they stay with their guns (losing no cohesion). If the assault is not stopped by fire, then they retire to an Infantry unit within 2MU and lose only 1 cohesion level. This retirement is classed as voluntary (they did not fail their test - they just did not fire well enough).

3. They can instead choose to take a CT if they wish to try relying on close range fire (p.30 last dot point).
If they fail the CT, then they do not fire (at any range). They lose 1 cohesion level if assaulted by Infantry, or 2 cohesion levels if assaulted by Cavalry (p.47). They retire to an Infantry unit within 2MU if Foot Artillery, or limber and make a retire move if Horse Artillery (p.30 last dot point). If they are assaulted by both Infantry and Cavalry then they would lose 2 cohesion levels. This retirement is "forced to retire by failing a test".

If the CT is successful, they fire at close range. If the assault is stopped, then they stay with their guns (losing no cohesion). If the assault is not stopped by fire, then they stay with the guns and have to fight the combat, probably losing badly).


I like this as it gives you 3 interesting choices about what you may do. And the choices are not always easy. Close range fire can be devastating and could break an assaulting unit - causing a chain reaction if nearby units are already Wavering. But if you roll badly, then the gunners will likely die.

Or you can take the compromise, for a bit of medium range fire. May stop the assault, or at least Disorder them, which may help another of your units if the assaulters can reach them this turn (since the gunners have then abandoned their guns).

Or you can take the safe option and retire them without firing. But note that it is difficult to get the gunners to rejoin their guns once abandoned. I actually think it is too difficult when thinking of Waterloo - how the British gunners moved to nearby squares when assaulted by Cavalry, then rejoined their guns and fired at the Cavalry as it retired. In FOGN they only get one chance to rejoin their guns. If they fail, they are off the table. I would prefer that you could keep testing each of your recovery phases. Could still take a while, especially as they always recover as Wavering. Would not make much difference in play for a small points match game, so I can see why it has been done for simplicity, but could be important in larger battles (e.g. a refight of Waterloo).

Cheers,
John Shaw

http://www.nwa.org.au
Last edited by Chasseur on Wed May 30, 2012 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by panda2 » Tue May 29, 2012 3:19 pm

John,

I agree with your assessment of the three options for artillery in response to an assault.

On the British artillery at Waterloo, however, I would note that Wellington is reported to have written after the battle regarding the artillery,

"We could not expect them to stand and die there, instead the officers and men were ordered to retreat to the squares (like I and my staff), until their cavalry was driven away. ... But they did no such thing. They ran from the battlefield, took with them the slow match, ammunition, and everything else. After we beat back the enemy's attacks and could have made good use of the artillery, we had no gunners. Actually, I would have had no artillery for the second part of the battle if I had not formed a reserve at the beginning."

He may have been exagerating a bit, of course, since he doesn't seem to have been fond of artillerymen and opposed a proposal to award artillery officers who served at Waterloo a cash bonus. However, even with only one test to rejoin the guns in FOGN you should recover 56% of the batteries on average, which might even seem rather generous if you took Wellington's view of the incident.

Andy D

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by viperofmilan » Tue May 29, 2012 3:28 pm

I'm not convinced these 3 choices are actually available to the player. Are you saying that my guns could take a single CMT (passing on a 4+) to stand and fire? And then, having passed this CMT can choose to fire at either close or medium range? That doesn't sound right (but I don't have the rules handy to check page 30). Presumable you have to say which you are trying to do (defensive fire at medium range or hodling fire until short range) as the negative results for failing the test are very different. Do both test pass on a 4+? Do you have to pass the first test (to shoot at medium range) and only if successful here take a second test to hold fire to short range?

One thing this does explain is why there is a line on the combat tables for fighting guns. I could never figure out why, when, or how you would ever be fighting guns.

Kevin

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by Jason_Langlois » Tue May 29, 2012 7:23 pm

One thing this does explain is why there is a line on the combat tables for fighting guns. I could never figure out why, when, or how you would ever be fighting guns.
If in a pursuit, your pursuing unit contacts the artillery during the first half of the pursuit move, the artillery won't get a Reaction move or fire. In that case, there will be a combat with the guns, I believe.

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by Chasseur » Tue May 29, 2012 9:25 pm

Andy,
Interesting comments about Waterloo.

Kevin,

Yes, you always have to say what you are trying to do first, before rolling for the CT. You do not see whether you are successful before deciding what you will attempt.
You must make a choice out of the 3 (if the enemy assault starts from more than 4MU away) before you roll. If the enemy start at 4MU or less then you only have a choice of 2 (retire straight away or attempt to stay for close range fire).
It is only 1 test if you want to fire. You are either testing to hold until close range (and then maybe get sabred to death) OR you are testing to fire for a bit at medium range and then retire. Hope this clears it up.

That is what makes it interesting for the player - making tough choices and then trying to work out how to recover when you don't roll well enough to carry out your brilliant plan :D

Note that this is for a normal assault. Pursuit into the artillery is a different story.

Cheers,
John Shaw
Last edited by Chasseur on Wed May 30, 2012 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by micheni1970 » Tue May 29, 2012 10:27 pm

how many dice for the artillery in close combat ?
i cant find it. propably 0?

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by deadtorius » Tue May 29, 2012 10:33 pm

would be the same number of dice as any other unit, depends on if it is a small unit or a large unit. I think you will find a -POA for artillery fighting though.

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by micheni1970 » Tue May 29, 2012 10:41 pm

but book says only for infantry or cavalry in tactical or extended line
for artillery not a word . even in all other situations

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by micheni1970 » Tue May 29, 2012 10:47 pm

ans its not logic to fight with the same number of dice even in -poa

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by Blathergut » Tue May 29, 2012 11:15 pm

micheni1970 wrote:but book says only for infantry or cavalry in tactical or extended line
for artillery not a word . even in all other situations
2nd line: All other troops or situations = 4 or 6 dice

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by deadtorius » Wed May 30, 2012 3:23 am

Thought it was in there somewhere. If in square you also get less dice, same line in the chart.

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by micheni1970 » Wed May 30, 2012 5:58 am

pge 56 DICE ALLOWANCE
'all other troops and situations' include all of the following
.A unit even partially in rough or dificult terrain
.a unit of infantry in square
.a unit in march column formation
.a unit of light infantry entirely in skirmish formation
.a unit of irregular light cavalry in any formation
.all units defending or assaulting across an obstacle
.all units defending or assaulting buioldings
.a unit of cavalry fighting infantry in square

where is the artillery?

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by Jason_Langlois » Wed May 30, 2012 6:17 am

It's not excluded, and thus falls under "all other troops".

That list is of infantry or cavalry that, due to specific circumstances, no longer qualify for use of the Tactical line.

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by SirGarnet » Wed May 30, 2012 9:10 am

Chasseur wrote:Yes, you always have to say what you are trying to do first, before rolling for the CMT. You do not see whether you are successful before deciding what you will attempt.
You mean Cohesion Test, for which it is correct that you decide before rolling. For an actual CMT there is no requirement to specify before rolling - presumably because the score is the same for any of them.

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by sueznick » Wed May 30, 2012 11:20 am

I’m still not clear about how unlimbered Artillery respond to an assault, as I read it they have the following options:

1. The default action is to abandon the guns and retire to an Infantry unit within 2MU. The Artillery drops 1 cohesion level and does not require a test.

2. If the enemy are more than 4MU away Horse Artillery may take a CT and then limber up and retire. If they fail the test they will drop 1 cohesion level but they will still limber up and retire.

3. If the enemy are more than 4MU away any Artillery may take a CT and attempt to fire at medium range and then abandon the guns.
If they pass the CT they fire and if the assault is stopped then they remain with the guns. If the assault is not stopped then they abandon the guns and drop 1 cohesion level for a voluntary retire.
If they fail the CT then Foot Artillery abandon the guns without firing and drop 1 or 2 cohesion levels depending upon whether they are being assaulted by Infantry or Cavalry. Horse Artillery limber up and retire, presumably dropping 1 cohesion level for failing a CT.

4. The Artillery can also choose to take a CT to stand and fire (presumably at close range).
If they pass the CT they fire and if the assault is stopped then they remain with the guns. If the assault is not stopped then they stand and fight the close combat.
If they fail the CT then they abandon the guns without firing and drop 1 or 2 cohesion levels depending upon whether they are being assaulted by Infantry or Cavalry.

This all seems straight forward but what happens if the Artillery want to abandon guns and there is no Infantry within 2MU?

Presumably the guns cannot be abandoned so option 1 and option 3 are not available. Horse Artillery may have option 2 but otherwise option 4 is the only choice and if the CT is failed then because the guns can’t be abandoned presumably the Artillery drops 1 cohesion level for failing the CT and then stands and fires?

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by Chasseur » Wed May 30, 2012 12:30 pm

You are correct Mike, I should have said CT. I have adjusted my posts above with this correction to avoid confusion for those that don't make it this far down the post. Thanks for the correction.

Cheers,
John Shaw

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by Chasseur » Wed May 30, 2012 12:41 pm

Hi Sueznick,

I seem to recall from discussions during play testing that the Artillery unit will be removed from the table if gunners are forced to retire and there is no Infantry unit within 2MU for them to retire to. But I cannot find any reference to it in the book at the moment. Terry or Mike, can you throw some light on this.

Cheers,
John Shaw

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Re: Foot Artillery Charged:???

Post by terrys » Thu May 31, 2012 3:35 pm

I seem to recall from discussions during play testing that the Artillery unit will be removed from the table if gunners are forced to retire and there is no Infantry unit within 2MU for them to retire to. But I cannot find any reference to it in the book at the moment. Terry or Mike, can you throw some light on this.
You can only voluntarily retire to an infantry unit if it is within 2MU. (taking 1 cohesion loss)
If there is no infantry within 2 MU, then you must attempt to stand and fire (and/or fight).
If you fail your cohesion test to stand and fire you will then retire (taking 1 cohesion loss if the assaulting unit is infantry and 2 if they are cavalry).

A note about recovering abandoned guns that I think some people may have missed:
1) Recovering abandoned guns is NOT the same as recovering cohesion. It MUST be attempted at the first opportunity, and this attempt occurs at the START of the recovery phase (but after checking victory conditions). It does not require a comander to be in range, nor does it stop a commander from recovering a unit as normal.
2) Abandoned guns always have 2 cohesion losses (i.e. are wavering) when they are recovered.
3) Abandoned guns that have just been revovered may also test for recovering cohesion during the same recovery phase.

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