Bursting trough and irregular skirmishes and buildings.

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Rekila
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Bursting trough and irregular skirmishes and buildings.

Post by Rekila » Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:34 pm

Two points arouse in our last game.

Bursting though friends: If a broken retiring unit must pass trough friends of a different division a CMT is necessary, correct? Who takes the CMT? And, Is a CP point necessary?

Irregular Skirmishes and buildings. Firing at buildings at Medium range you hit with 6 . Irregular skirmishes must re-roll those 6, and need a second 6 to hit, correct?

KendallB
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Re: Bursting trough and irregular skirmishes and buildings.

Post by KendallB » Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:32 pm

Burst through happen automatically. A retiring unit will burst through any friends it can't avoid. No CMT is needed. The unit being burst through by the retirers must take a Cohesion Test (CT) - failure will drop the unit one cohesion level.

You are correct about irregular skirmishers and rerolling the 6 needed to hit.

Rekila
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Re: Bursting trough and irregular skirmishes and buildings.

Post by Rekila » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:45 pm

Thanks . In fact we have always played this way, but in our last game found confusing the reference about fulfilling the requirements for Interpenetrations on page 40.

In the end the Grenzers solved the problem assaulting the buildings!

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Re: Bursting trough and irregular skirmishes and buildings.

Post by KendallB » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:07 pm

The interpenetration bit is to see whether the retiring unit will go all the way through or stop in front of the friendly unit.

It's also worth remembering that units do not slide to avoid skirmishers or deployed artillery but will burst through them.

Rekila
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Re: Bursting trough and irregular skirmishes and buildings.

Post by Rekila » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:00 pm

That reminds me of an episode of “bursting though friends” at the battle of Leuthen between The Austrians and their Württemberg allies.
“The men of the battalion of Erzherzog Carl saw blue-coated Infantry swarming towards them and under the impression that they were Prussians… they made ready to receive them with a good platoon fire. By good fortune somebody set up a cry of “Württembergers” and the misunderstanding was overcome. They open up intervals between the divisions and let the fugitives pass trough without hindrance” (from Duffy : By Force of Arms)

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Re: Bursting trough and irregular skirmishes and buildings.

Post by deadtorius » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:53 pm

keep in mind that skirmishers can't frontally charge non skirmishing enemy, so if those Grenzers were average irregular they could not charge the building. Skirmishers will reform to tactical when occupying or defending a building, so even a Light Infantry unit that was skirmishing before it got to the building will change to tactical and unless a permanent skirmishing unit can't be charged by the Grenzers.
One of the reasons I always choose the poor drilled option for Grenzers if I can get it. That way they can reform into tactical to either stand and fight or charge if need be. I only take average irregular if I have to or the Grenzers are poor conscript, which is just way too horrible to use.

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Re: Bursting trough and irregular skirmishes and buildings.

Post by Rekila » Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:29 pm

Interesting. But in this case as we were playing a SYW battle and the buildings were held by a Prussian free-battalion (average, drilled, skirmishes) so unless the Austrian commander could be convinced that Skirmishes in buildings are not longer skirmishes, the grenzers could assault them. I agree that Average, irregular, skirmishes, are poor value in the game. One thinks of them as ambushers firing for cover, but they are not very good at that. In our Monongahela scenario the Red Indians were of little value against the British regulars. It is true that in the end that matters not as the French unit of “Compagies Franches de la Marine” (average veteran, skirmishes) won the game almost single handled! In the European SYW context, I think that that is not a bad thing as the Prussian free-battalions seems to have been more effectives that the grenzers. (My opinion I must say, the Austrian commander has a different one but as she express her opinion on the subject always with some strong words in it I will not reproduce it here! :D)

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Re: Bursting trough and irregular skirmishes and buildings.

Post by MDH » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:15 pm

Rekila wrote:Interesting. But in this case as we were playing a SYW battle and the buildings were held by a Prussian free-battalion (average, drilled, skirmishes) so unless the Austrian commander could be convinced that Skirmishes in buildings are not longer skirmishes, the grenzers could assault them. I agree that Average, irregular, skirmishes, are poor value in the game. One thinks of them as ambushers firing for cover, but they are not very good at that. In our Monongahela scenario the Red Indians were of little value against the British regulars. It is true that in the end that matters not as the French unit of “Compagies Franches de la Marine” (average veteran, skirmishes) won the game almost single handled! In the European SYW context, I think that that is not a bad thing as the Prussian free-battalions seems to have been more effectives that the grenzers. (My opinion I must say, the Austrian commander has a different one but as she express her opinion on the subject always with some strong words in it I will not reproduce it here! :D)

Ditto "Interesting" .

In my researches for an 18th century FOG set I have come across at least one major instance on the battle field of Croats ( aka grenzers) being used for a major assault on a defended position. And Frei corps were more common then (and in the 1790's) than later ). The French had a version in the 1700's to try to match the Croats. Of course the context is different as by the time of the Napoleonic wars there were many regular light infantry in armies whereas there were none as such in 7YW etc and the long service infantry of the line were much better drilled and more strictly controlled by comparison with later.

It is a bit semantic of course as "irregular" as a concept does not have to mean in skirmish formation unless we define it so. Our use in FOG(N) is bit more like " undrilled" as used in FoG(AM) and is a training quality not elan. That said, my sense so far in my reading, is that Croats and Freicorps in the 18th century were more significant off ,rather than on ,the battle field or on its fringes.

I wonder if the term " semi regular" has any practical application ? Under Maria Theresa the Croats were a form of standing force and their officers tried to argue for comparable conditions and recognition to those of the line. We need someone to find and translate any old regulations for the Croats that might lie in archives in the Balkans to give us an indication of how flexible they might really have been tactically and whether that varied much over the decades of the 18th and early 19th centuries !

The Prussian freicorps of 1813-14 were largely incorporated into the regular regiments by 1815 which does not suggest that was much of a stretch for them and that they were of a much better quality and training than the "freebooter" types of earlier years.

As to North American tribes one could perhaps think more about a warrior culture ( and Highlanders of 1715 and 1745 ?) The problem is when you come to define the consequent different behavioural attributes for a miniatures game which can drive out nuance.

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Re: Bursting trough and irregular skirmishes and buildings.

Post by hazelbark » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:47 pm

In the SYW at the first battle of Lobositz, the Croats defended a vineyard or terraced hill of some kind. Actually I think it was Lobositz hill. It was the forward Austrian right. The Prussian committed several battalions of foot to drive them out. I need to find details but the Croats held up well.

The Battle is an interesting mess overall, but it shows the power of the disciplined infantry. As I recall there was FOG and both sides were sort of feeding units into the FOG in the center and infantry firepower drove off the mounted and then both sides mounted just engaged in a swirling battle. I've been meaning to go back an research it more as always suspect there is better details than my summary.

But that fight I think was one of the very few large scale battles where the Croats were employed as a key part of the battle. Now the so called "little war" which was various forces particularly in Silesia was I gather a far more contested affair of mixed troops. But the actions there that were battles were often under a few thousand on each side.

Rekila
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Re: Bursting trough and irregular skirmishes and buildings.

Post by Rekila » Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:17 pm

The Lobosch hill was initially defended by about 2000 Croats. The Prussians send against them three regular regiments and the second battalion of Blanckensee regiment. The Croats had to be reinforced by 2000 Austrian regulars, including six companies of grenadiers. The Prussians move four more battalions in support and expelled the Austrian from the Lobosch in a bayonet assault. Browne sends three more Austrian regular regiments, but they seem to have arrived too late to save the situation. Having conquered the Lobosch the Prussian threat to throw all the Austrian right into the Elbe and Browne has to order the Austrian retract, conceding victory to the Prussians. After some fight between the Prussians and the Croats, the combat in the Lobosch was basically decided between the Austrian and Prussian regulars. I’m not sure them that we could say that the battle was a success for the Croats, considering that they were fighting uphill in a “terrain that suit they tactics to perfection. Terraced slopes with vineyards and plots divided by stone walls (Duffy)” I agree more with the idea that it shows “the power of disciplined infantry”.

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