Order of tests

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Saxonian
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Order of tests

Post by Saxonian » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:43 am

A wavering infantry unit is charged in the flank by cavalry.
The first test would be for a wavering unit being the target of an assault. Let's assume this test is passed.

My question is when does the unit being assaulted take the automatic drop for being charged in the flank?
Does this happen:
1/ at the moment the charge is declared (like the test for wavering) or
2/ at the moment the charge actually contacts.

If it is the first, then the unit would break immediately.

If it is the second, then the infantry would test for being charged by cav while not in square. If this test is also passed (these are very lucky infantry 8) ) then they would be in square and therefore not hit in the flank, so they would not take the automatic drop.

Blathergut
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Re: Order of tests

Post by Blathergut » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:52 pm

The flank thing would only happen on contact. So the infantry might end up in square.

Saxonian
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Re: Order of tests

Post by Saxonian » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:26 am

So I guess that means you try to charge wavering infantry in the flank with infantry - no chance to form square.

Doesn't this create issues if the target is cavalry?
The fact that they get a 4MU counter charge means that they can wheel nearly 90 degrees.
So unless you begin your charge from very close, or charge with two units from different directions, it is basically impossible to hit cav in the flank unless starting from about 1MU away - the target would always be able to turn enough to make it frontal.

Which brings up another thought - is the wheel on a counter-charge restricted to the first half of the move i.e. 2MU?
Or is it that you get a free wheel first?
I can't remember, and I'm not in front of my rules to check the precise rules for counter-charges.

Blathergut
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Re: Order of tests

Post by Blathergut » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:49 am

Page 30, second bullet: Response to a charge...counter-charge if cavalry are assaulted frontally by other cavalry.

Carriage
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Re: Order of tests

Post by Carriage » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:58 am

So I guess that means you try to charge wavering infantry in the flank with infantry - no chance to form square.
Yeah, this is weird to me. It feels like if a legal flank charge is declared and not intercepted, it should give the drop. Why are infantry better at it than cav?

Blathergut
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Re: Order of tests

Post by Blathergut » Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:04 am

Carriage wrote:
So I guess that means you try to charge wavering infantry in the flank with infantry - no chance to form square.
Yeah, this is weird to me. It feels like if a legal flank charge is declared and not intercepted, it should give the drop. Why are infantry better at it than cav?

They are not. You only counter-charge with cavalry if enemy are charging your front.

Carriage
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Re: Order of tests

Post by Carriage » Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:13 am

I'm talking about the charging infantry in the flank bit. Why do wavering infantry just break when charged by infantry, but get to test to form square if charged by cav?

BrettPT
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Re: Order of tests

Post by BrettPT » Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:47 am

In practice, cavalry never actually contact infantry in the flank, in the open, in FoGN.
Unless the infantry commander is mad (or already in combat, or perhaps being combined arms attacked) the infantry will always form square and therefore have no flank contacted, and not be required to drop a level.

ravenflight
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Re: Order of tests

Post by ravenflight » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:06 am

Carriage wrote:I'm talking about the charging infantry in the flank bit. Why do wavering infantry just break when charged by infantry, but get to test to form square if charged by cav?
Well, from a 'real life' perspective I think this is correct.

Getting charged in the flank by a solid formation has ALWAYS been a bad thing. Even today with unformed combat you don't want a weak flank.

The thing is that in and around the Napoleonic period, infantry developed a tactic to be practically PROOF against mounted. Infantry drilled over and over in bow to form square. In this instance you don't have formed troops charging a flank. You have formed troops charging OTHER than in the flank. It doesn't matter if they are wavering... so long as they have SOME form of cohesion they will attempt to form square. I imagine that under the rules troops FAILING the waver test are still attempting to form square and not being successful so die a horrible death.

I see no problem with this.

Carriage
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Re: Order of tests

Post by Carriage » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:18 am

Hmm, yeah that's a reasonable explanation.

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Re: Order of tests

Post by MDH » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:03 am

ravenflight wrote:
Carriage wrote:I'm talking about the charging infantry in the flank bit. Why do wavering infantry just break when charged by infantry, but get to test to form square if charged by cav?
Well, from a 'real life' perspective I think this is correct.

Getting charged in the flank by a solid formation has ALWAYS been a bad thing. Even today with unformed combat you don't want a weak flank.

The thing is that in and around the Napoleonic period, infantry developed a tactic to be practically PROOF against mounted. Infantry drilled over and over in bow to form square. In this instance you don't have formed troops charging a flank. You have formed troops charging OTHER than in the flank. It doesn't matter if they are wavering... so long as they have SOME form of cohesion they will attempt to form square. I imagine that under the rules troops FAILING the waver test are still attempting to form square and not being successful so die a horrible death.

I see no problem with this.
Indeed what we are trying to do is represent situations where, as you say, infantry hastily form square so may not always as be steady and well formed as in other more controlled circumstances. Within the footprint of the unit there will be 2 or more Btn squares formed too.

In the 18th century, until just before the revolution, it was not the practice to form squares unless isolated- which could be on the flank of the line. The regulations had provision for square nonetheless. But they believed that their highly drilled regular long serving infantry could drive off cavalry with a close range volley, even turning the third back rank round to deliver fire when attacked from the rear. Given time they to still preferred to form to the flank in line to face a flank threat. And of course the open attack column for infantry, which helps when forming square, was not in use.

By the Napoleonic wars ( ie post 1800) infantry were less composed of the old style long serving highly drilled regulars and were less able to carry out theses kinds of manoeuvres between line and square or deliver such well controlled volleys and the square became more and more necessary.

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