Conscript Support

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deadtorius
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Conscript Support

Post by deadtorius » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:05 pm

In our last game I had a large unit of Russian Conscripts that were receiving rear support from a small unit of Russian Grenadiers. The conscripts got charged by cavalry and got dropped to disordered so formed square. They managed to bounce the cavalry. Question is during the recovery phase do they still count the Grenadiers for support for getting the exta die for the cohesion test or not. They are in Square so could not get combat rear support but does that also apply to cohesion support?

We played i they got the extra die because they got it at the beginning of the turn and their morale support situation remained the same, only their formation changed.

richafricanus
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Re: Conscript Support

Post by richafricanus » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:03 am

I think you played it realistically but not in accordance with the rules. Latest clarifications say specifically on p.56 "Squares cannot receive rear support". And since conscripts "gain an additional dice if they have another unit giving them rear support" (p.70), by definition conscripts in square can't claim the additional dice for rear support according to the rules as they're written.

deadtorius
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Re: Conscript Support

Post by deadtorius » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:27 pm

Thats what we wondered but I dont think the rules specify rear support, just that they are supported. Its an odd situation where you get it then suddenly can lose it for no apparent reason other than changing formation. I almost wonder if being in a square is not a more secure formation than being in a line?
Perhaps Terry could wade in with an opinion on this one.

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Re: Conscript Support

Post by Blathergut » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:58 pm

It does require 'rear support' to conscripts for them to get the 2nd die.

deadtorius
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Re: Conscript Support

Post by deadtorius » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:36 am

Wanted to bump it up and see if we can get a definitive answer

Russ1664
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Re: Conscript Support

Post by Russ1664 » Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:57 pm

I think the rear support for squares does seem to be potentially an anomaly in the rules. One minute a unit in tactical will count an appropriate unit to its rear as support, but form square and plop, its no longer supported as though the supporting unit had just vanished. Why? It is a game mechanism to solve the problem of how to count what is to the rear of a unit in square which has no rear? Or is it some how that units in square do not recognise nearby friends? So in a sense what is the rational for rear support? Is it a morale bonus for nearby friends or are they perceived to directly contribute to the combat in some manner? and at what level. It the rank and file who will fight more confidently knowing they are unlikely to be attacked in the rear or the senior command of the formation who can direct more of their subunits to the front knowing that someone else is covering their formations rear?

Possibly squares should automatically count rear support as they have no rear to worry about, but it does depend on what we are trying to represent.

deadtorius
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Re: Conscript Support

Post by deadtorius » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:07 pm

Rear support and conscript support are two entirely different things. Rear support adds/subtracts dice in combat, not what we are dealing with here. A supported conscript unit will get 2 dice instead of 1 die for cohesion tests. This extra die is supplied by having a friendly unit behind them. Technically once in square you don't have a rear so you can't claim rear support for combat. Question is should being in square automatically give you an extra die like defending an obstacle or building would? What if the conscripts didn't have support for the extra cohesion die, would they get it for just being in square?

Russ1664
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Re: Conscript Support

Post by Russ1664 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:38 pm

Yes you are quite correct I was referring to rear support in combat. I had not remembered that conscripts suffer from the same issue if they are in square and taking a cohesion test.

deadtorius
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Re: Conscript Support

Post by deadtorius » Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:17 pm

if you go to the original post you will see I started in line with conscript support but was forced into square and dropped to disordered. Drove off the cavalry and then when I went to rally.... 1 die or 2? We played it as 2 dice since they had the support pre square and the supporting unit had not moved so you would think it should still apply. Personally I think a square might give the boys a bit more confidence so they should get the extra die for being in square anyway. Whats the difference between that and standing along a river bank or hill contour? Its all about the conscripts perception of being safer than just standing about in tactical for that extra cohesion die.

Russ1664
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Re: Conscript Support

Post by Russ1664 » Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:50 pm

Yes sorry, I was fixated on the word support and got carried away. We've been wrestling to construct a melee combat support reference table to try and cover all the support situations wrt position,formation,terrain etc as we have trouble trying to remember when support does and does not count.

I'd agree with your view that for Cohesion tests conscripts in square should count the extra dice.Being in square would make them feel safer, whether it is or not depends on what they are facing of course! However if they were wavering would you allow the extra dice?

deadtorius
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Re: Conscript Support

Post by deadtorius » Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:29 am

They would get an extra die if they were defending an obstacle, river bank hill, inside a building or have non fragged friends to their rear, so yes wavering square would still get 2 dice for cohesion tests.

Rear support can be a bit of a can they or cant they alright. I think its pretty much been hammered out here in the forums who can and cant get it. Squares for example can give it but cant receive rear support. Dont think buildings can get rear support, cav can only get rear support from other cav. Guard needs drilled or guard for support, wavering can never support, Infantry skirmishers can't provide support. Im sure I forgot a few other cases but you get the idea..

richafricanus
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Re: Conscript Support

Post by richafricanus » Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:12 am

Dead, I still don't see that conscripts in square with a unit to their rear get 2 dice for a cohesion test.

The rule specifically says, "Conscripts gain an additional dice if they have another unit giving them rear support...". It says nothing about simply having a unit to their rear.

I get the illogic of having rear support when in tactical and then suddenly not when in square, but that's how the rule is written so far as I can see.

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Re: Conscript Support

Post by BrettPT » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:14 pm

I agree that under the rules conscript squares don't get an extra dice for CTs. They have no rear to support.
Perhaps it can be rationalised as: cheering conscripts going forward with their mates in support can be brave. But isolate them & surround them with enemy cavalry, not so much.

deadtorius
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Re: Conscript Support

Post by deadtorius » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:27 am

I had thought that like standing on a hill crest or a river bank, a square would give them a sense of security so they could get the extra die. Im not so sure that defending a hill crest is any less reassuring than being in a nice tight square, safe from enemy cavalry.
I can see where defending an obstacle, field fortification or building would give them the extra sense of security, a river bank makes it harder for the enemy to get at you so extra die makes sense there, a hill crest is more reassuring?

Saxonian
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Re: Conscript Support

Post by Saxonian » Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:54 am

If you went into square as a response to an enemy cav charge, this would obviously occur in your opponent's turn so you would not be able to recover straight away - can only do this in your own turn.
This means that the unit would then be able to change formation in its own turn before attempting to recover, and get the benefit of the support.

I don't think the extra dice should be available to conscripts because they are in square. A square is an inherently defensive formation of benefit against cavalry only. If the infantry is facing a cavalry corps, being in square would probably feel pretty good.
But if the infantry are facing a cav unit in charge range, and staring down the barrel of an artillery unit in medium and an infantry unit in close range, being in square maybe wouldn't feel quite so rosy.

deadtorius
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Re: Conscript Support

Post by deadtorius » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:53 pm

Yes I suppose it would depend on the situation, in this case it was a matter of getting the extra die in tactical, changing to square during my turn then not getting the extra die because I'm now in square, after the enemy cav charged my conscripts and we're repulsed.
which of course brought up the question.
Is standing on a hill looking at the enemy cannons any more reassuring then being in square? Being inside a building or behind an obstacle is a physical barrier which probably gives one a sense of security. Having trained troops behind you eases the conscripts mind. Would being in a square not have a similar effect, or being in square with that unit of line troops near not give you the same calm feeling?

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Re: Conscript Support

Post by bahdahbum » Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:21 pm

Hy,

Sorry for joining late . My very first idea was and still is : as deadtorius wrote conscripts get a second dice for being either supported or in a defensive position . Defensive position being defined by logic . In my minde, a square is a defensive position in the following senses :

1) it gives an impression of being "protected" and vs cavalry it is the typical defensive formation .

My 2 cents

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