Westphalians 1812

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Astronomican
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Westphalians 1812

Post by Astronomican » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:13 pm

One of my FOG-N opponents, Alan, is deeply in love with the Westphalians - he's collected them several times, in different scales, for different rules, and has begun to collect them, once again, in 15mm for FOG-N.

Having read the army list several times, he asked me to put forward a few comments/questions from him about said army list, and I present them here:-

Commanders
The army list should only allow the Corps Commander and up to 3 divisional commanders.

Light Infantry
The army list allows several Light Infantry units, yet the Light Infantry component of the Westphalian army was 3 independent Light Infantry battalions, who never operated together. If a FOG-N unit is made up of several battalions, why are the independent Light Infantry battalions so offered?
Would it not be more representative to remove the Light Infantry entry and allow the Westphalian player more Skirmisher attachments to the Line Infantry to simulate the usage of the independent Light Infantry battalions? Say, 1 per Line infantry unit.
Who exactly are the Jaegers in the Westphalian army list? George Nafziger gives no mention of them for the 1812 campaign, neither does Digby Smith. So where do they come from?

Guard
As mentioned above, a FOG-N unit is made up of several battalions, yet the Guard battalions (Grenadiers/Karabiniers/Jaegers) are individually available in the Westphalian army list - why? The Westphalian Guard units should be merged into a single FOG-N unit with the appropriate Elan/Training/Capabilities applied, e.g. :-

Guard Infantry...Light Infantry...Superior...Veteran...Guard/Rifles...26pts per base...4 or 6 bases...0 bases minimum...6 bases maximum

Superior/Veteran/Guard status - self-evident. Light Infantry status - Karabiniers and Jaegers are Light Infantry. Rifles - both the Karabiniers and Jaegers carried rifles. Yes, its an expensive unit, but it does accurately cover the Westphalian Guard and its components.

There was a Guard Horse battery that consisted of 6 pieces (4x6pdr cannons + 2x7pdr howitzers). To accurately portray this battery, it should be a compulsory medium artillery attachment for the Guard unit mentioned above only if the Guard are used.

Cavalry
A revised cavalry restriction should be in place to cover the cavalry's usage:-

* All cavalry units should be in a single division. Any optional units must also be in this division.

This covers the usage of the entire Westphalian cavalry for the battle of Valutina Gora.

After Jerome went home with the Garde du Corps, the Westphalian Cuirassiers were removed from the army and placed into Latour-Mauborg's IV Cavalry Corps alongside the Polish and Saxon heavy cavalry. During the battle of Borodino, the IV Cavalry Corps was situated very close to the Westphalians. To allow cavalry support from Latour-Mauborg, the following can be used:-

* If no optional cavalry units are included, a single division from the "French Cavalry Reserve Corps 1812" list may be included. This division consists of either Polish Uhlans, or Saxon, Polish, & Westphalian Cuirassiers. A single Horse Artillery unit from the list can be included with the division.

Attachments
Skirmishers: As mentioned above, the Westphalian army had 3 independent Light Infantry battalions and provided Light Infantry support for the Line Infantry brigades they were attached to. This should allow each Line Infantry unit a Skirmisher attachment.

Artillery: There should be a minimum of 1 artillery attachment. This represents the Guard Horse artillery and is only required if the Guard unit mentioned above is used in the army. otherwise no change.

Alan would like comments on his comments/suggestions.


Jimi

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Re: Westphalians 1812

Post by KendallB » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:04 am

He wants the Westphalian guard BETTER than Old Guard?!? Superior Veteran my @$$, try Average Drilled Guard Line with skirmisher attachment.

There's nothing stopping him basing an army on an historical OB. Use the rules at the back of ToN for it.

david53
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Re: Westphalians 1812

Post by david53 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:23 pm

I use Westphalians in FOG N and I think the list in the army maybe overstates how good they are.

Please tell me were in the references it says they actually fought with elan or skill.

I too like them and have studied as much as I can get hold off but no were have I found great things done by them except maybe the Cavalry unit sent to Spain but this fought with French units.

They unlike the other Confederation countries did'nt have a proper state with history it was a country formed out of many other countries formed by the invader.

The soldiers of this state themsleves did'nt have the time to gain a form of belonging.

You have the Guard Artillery as 8 pieces checking Otto Von Pivka Armies of 1812 Page 140 he has Attached to the 24th Division he has the Guard Artillery of 1 Officer and 38 men while he has a foot Battery of 4 Officers and 184 men. Using these figures if correct would'nt allow for a full battery maybe only a section of two guns in the guard.

Also as Terry has explained just by calling some units Guards dos'nt make them Veteran or Superior both them come through experience and confidence and also being in a wining army even thought I like this army having raised one specially for these rules I can't see them as good as the Imperial Guard.

Dave

Just another bit page 82 of Otto von pivka armies of 1812 has a mention of 'Jager-Garde Battalion plus the three Light Infantry Battalion's

david53
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Re: Westphalians 1812

Post by david53 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:58 am

Astronomican wrote: Who exactly are the Jaegers in the Westphalian army list? George Nafziger gives no mention of them for the 1812 campaign, neither does Digby Smith. So where do they come from?

Jimi
Good Question John H Gill 'With Eagles to Glory' gives a good answer.

Page 416 - 417

The Garde Jager Battalion was originally been organized with four companies giving a total of 486. By 1809 it seems to have been expanded into an establishment of six companies of 119 men each. The unit wore green coats but carried the the same weapon as the line infantry.


To this can be added the Jager- Carabinier* Battalion this was recruited from foresters and trained hunters. This along with the garde du Corp was the only other volunteer unit in the army. Also this was the only unit that was armed with the rifle. This was formed with a establishment of four companies each with 103 each.

Both the above were also mentioned in the Book Armies of 1812 Garde Jager has an establishment of 810 men and the Carabiniers has one of 641 men.

*Otto von pivka in his Armies Book for some reason users this name on page 83 but Chasseurs Carbiniers but to me they are the same unit.

Dave

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Re: Westphalians 1812

Post by terrys » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:21 pm

Commanders
The army list should only allow the Corps Commander and up to 3 divisional commanders.
As the entry on page 56 state “This list may be used to create a Westphalian national army for the period” rather than just the 8th corps for the invasion. We allow for the inclusion of the cuirassiers that were assigned to the 7th heavy cavalry division – for which you may need the 4th DC.
The 8th Corps on its own wouldn’t reach 800pts in game terms – hence the rather obvious over sizing of this corps (when compared to the relatively small 8th corps in 1812).
Would it not be more representative to remove the Light Infantry entry and allow the Westphalian player more Skirmisher attachments to the Line Infantry to simulate the usage of the independent Light Infantry battalions? Say, 1 per Line infantry unit.
I would agree that we are fairly generous with light infantry in this list. If you wish to leave them out you can – they aren’t compulsory. You will then be allowed to use up to 2 skirmisher attachments per division.
The availability of Jaegers was allowing for the guard jaegers to be fielded alongside the other light infantry battalions. We should probably have not allowed both line and guard jaegers to be fielded at the same time.
Guard .......
There is absolutely no way we would classify Westphalian guard the same as French OG Chasseurs a Pied. Given their history, we’re probably being generous in giving them guard status at all.
Allowing 2 units of guard is probably generous, but is permitted on the assumption that the guard du corps didn’t go home. We could have just left the unit description as “Guard Infantry”, but felt that using their actual actually names gave a little more flavour. The fact that we have named them doesn’t mean that the entire unit is composed of that guard unit, but does permit players to use a battalion of 32 figures based for a different rules.
There was a Guard Horse battery that consisted of 6 pieces (4x6pdr cannons + 2x7pdr howitzers). To accurately portray this battery, it should be a compulsory medium artillery attachment for the Guard unit mentioned above only if the Guard are used.
The 1st Westphalian horse guard battery (4 guns) was grouped with the 2nd Westphalian foot battery - so is included as part of the (non-guard) field artillery.
However, you can instead assign an artillery attachment to a guard unit and consider this to be the guard horse battery.
The 2nd Westphalian horse battery (of 6 guns) was assigned to the Cuirassiers and could be use as an attachment to a cuirassiers unit – if you use them.
Artillery: There should be a minimum of 1 artillery attachment. This represents the Guard Horse artillery and is only required if the Guard unit mentioned above is used in the army. otherwise no change.
As stated above – not if it is combined with another battery to form a separate artillery unit.

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