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Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:37 am
by shadowdragon
I find that the current list works for the Prussian army at Hohenlohe, but not for the other armies such as the main army at Auerstadt and and L'Estocq's corps. Here are some of the troop additions:

1) Prussian Royal Guard: These formed a brigade in the reserve corps at Auerstadt and consisted of IR 6 (Grenadier Guard - 1 battalion) and IR 15 (Garde - 3 battalions including the Leib battalion. I suggest rating these the same a grenadiers but with the status of 'guards'. So, Average Veteran Guards (14 points) or Superior Drilled Guards (15 points). Unit size of 4 with a min-max of 0-8 bases.

Guard units cannot be used with either torwarczys or Saxon allies.

2) Towarczys: These were light cavalry lancers. In 1806 they consisted of a regiment of 10 squadrons and a battalion of 5 squadrons. There were not engaged at Jena-Auerstadt but were part of L'Estocq's corps. With the reforms they were used as the cadre for two uhlan regiments. I suggest rating them the same as the uhlans - average drilled lancers (10 points). Unit size of 4 or 6 bases with a min-max of 0-8 bases.

Torwarczys cannot be used with guards units or Saxon allies. In addition, only a single cuirassier unit of up to 6 bases can be used. The combined maximum for both torwarczys and hussars is 12 bases (i.e., the torwarczys and hussars are grouped together for army base limits).

It would be nice to be able to field the nice 18mm torwarczy figures by Boki miniatures.

3) Foot Jagers: The Prussian army had a Jager regiment of 3 battalions. In addition Saxe Weimar provided a jager battalion that was with Oswald's fusilier brigade at Auerstadt. These were distributed approximately one battalion to each major army group. They were used somewhat like the British rifles with companies distributed but six companies (1 1/2 battalions) at fought together in a successful rear guard action at Altenzaun:

http://www.napoleon-series.org/cgi-bin/ ... d;id=58905

Although one can get the same effect by adding a rifle attachment to a fusilier unit, I thought they could arguably be rated a higher than average drilled. So I suggest they be rated as average veteran rifles (perhaps it should be restricted to skirmish formation) (17 points). Unit size of 4 bases with a min-max of 0-4. Together with a fusilier unit this allows one to create Yorck's command at Altenzaun.

4) The list in the book has Saxon troops as optional troops. However, only the Hohenlohe's army had Saxon troops. Without the Saxon optional troops the list is a bit tight. I suggest increasing the Prussian troop maximums by adding the maximums for the equivalent Saxon troops types. The new Prussian limits would be Musketeers - 52, Grenadiers - 12, Total of Musketeers, Grenadiers & Fusiliers - 52, Hussars & Torwarczys - 12, Dragoons & Cuirassiers - 20, Total of Hussars, Dragoons & Cuirassiers - 28, 6pdr field artillery - 6, all foot artillery - 6 and horse artillery - 4.

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:55 pm
by richafricanus
Some nice research here. Would that mean the Guard and the lancers couldn't be used together?

Also do you think you should be able to use cuirassiers in mixed divisions as the list says you can?

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:36 pm
by shadowdragon
richafricanus wrote:Some nice research here. Would that mean the Guard and the lancers couldn't be used together?

Also do you think you should be able to use cuirassiers in mixed divisions as the list says you can?
Thanks, richafricanus.

Strictly speaking, only Brunswick's main army should have guards and only L'Estocq's corps the lancers. I've edited the original post to put in restrictions on both the guards and the lancers to reflect army differences.

With regards to using cuirassiers in mixed divisions - yes, according to the army's organization, which typically was an all-arms division of 4 infantry regiments, 2 grenadier battalions, 2 infantry brigade batteries (it's unclear if these were 12pdrs or 6pdrs - I think they were in the process of replacing 12pdrs with 6 pdrs), 2 regiments of dragoons or cuirassiers, 1 battalion (5 sqns) of hussars, 1 battalion of fusiliers and 1 horse artillery battery. The intention was to copy the French all-arms corps. In any event the actual employment seems to have been a mix of this official organization and 18th century practices of assigning regiments to wings and lines at the time of the battle. Here's Peter Hofschroer's description of the employment of the Prusso-Saxon troops at Jena. It's a jumble of the organization of the ORBATs for Hohenlohe's army.

http://greatestbattles.iblogger.org/GB/ ... er.htm?i=1

At Auerstadt, all of the fusilier battalions were stripped from their divisions and grouped under Oswald and deployed off to the army's flank - essentially ending up not involved in the fighting and not providing needed skirmishing power. The employment of the cuirassiers and dragoons were mixed. One regiment of dragoons was grouped with the hussars. The remaining cuirassiers and dragoons seem to have been both employed separately and what FoGN would consider a 'mixed division'. The problem is that the Prussian divisions are too large to be a FoGN division and too small to be a corps. Perhaps the best way to reflect the Prussian army's atrocious command structure is to give them one overall competent commander. Writers seem to blame the troops but it seems to me that army did everything they could to put their troops at a maximum disadvantage.

A long way to say, yes, you should be able to use the cuirassiers in a mixed division.

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:02 am
by Philip
Thanks for the tip about Boki Miniatures. I wasn't aware of them before!

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:21 pm
by shadowdragon
Philip wrote:Thanks for the tip about Boki Miniatures. I wasn't aware of them before!
Just got a note today that my order (towarczys, Russian guard Cossacks, polish krakus and more Russian generals than I will ever need) are in the mail. I only ordered yesterday, so fast service.

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:31 pm
by shadowdragon
richafricanus wrote:Some nice research here. Would that mean the Guard and the lancers couldn't be used together?

Also do you think you should be able to use cuirassiers in mixed divisions as the list says you can?
Further on cuirassiers in mixed divisions...here's an account about Auerstadt where each of the main divisions coming up had their heavy cavalry stripped off at Blucher's request so he could throw them at veteran French infantry squares. This is after these same divisions had their light infantry and light cavalry taken away to form an ad hoc advance guard.

http://labataille.us/titles/auerstadt.shtml

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:22 pm
by richafricanus
Thanks for sharing Shadowdragon.

As part of the work we're doing on v2 updating the army lists is in scope. Rather than take it all on ourselves, we thought we might open it up to the community of experts. So if anyone has any particular field of expertise and has time, we'll be asking for volunteers to send us updates.

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:43 pm
by shadowdragon
richafricanus wrote:Thanks for sharing Shadowdragon.

As part of the work we're doing on v2 updating the army lists is in scope. Rather than take it all on ourselves, we thought we might open it up to the community of experts. So if anyone has any particular field of expertise and has time, we'll be asking for volunteers to send us updates.
Happy to help but not so much an expert as just a keen interest in the 1806 campaign.

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:20 pm
by hazelbark
shadowdragon wrote: 1) Prussian Royal Guard: These formed a brigade in the reserve corps at Auerstadt and consisted of IR 6 (Grenadier Guard - 1 battalion) and IR 15 (Garde - 3 battalions including the Leib battalion. I suggest rating these the same a grenadiers but with the status of 'guards'. So, Average Veteran Guards (14 points) or Superior Drilled Guards (15 points). Unit size of 4 with a min-max of 0-8 bases.
I think this should 0-4 bases based on 4 battalions and likely field attrition.

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:28 pm
by hazelbark
I think part of the 06-07 Prussians and Russians. (possibly 05 Austrians and Russians) need to better reflect their command and control handicaps. I think it was a real lost opportunity to not reflect these better.

Limit them to less divisions (unless allied).
Limit the first couple Divisional commanders to just Competent.
Require a division to have more units if the above doesn't work. This will create cumbersome maneuver and harder to rally.
Then the Prussian infantry should likely have better firepower at close range. Veteran?
Probably only letting brigade commanders attach to cavalry.

In short the Prussians should if the French walk straight into them, be quite effective.

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:26 am
by shadowdragon
hazelbark wrote:
shadowdragon wrote: 1) Prussian Royal Guard: These formed a brigade in the reserve corps at Auerstadt and consisted of IR 6 (Grenadier Guard - 1 battalion) and IR 15 (Garde - 3 battalions including the Leib battalion. I suggest rating these the same a grenadiers but with the status of 'guards'. So, Average Veteran Guards (14 points) or Superior Drilled Guards (15 points). Unit size of 4 with a min-max of 0-8 bases.
I think this should 0-4 bases based on 4 battalions and likely field attrition.
The guard battalion had 6 companies versus the 5 companies of a musketeer or 4 for a grenadier battalion. If the battalions were not at full strength at Auerstadt it would be because of either detached companies or that mobilization wasn't complete. For what it's worth I've found quite a few order of battle inconsistencies for the Prussians. Perhaps it's because of the debacle so soon after the war began and perhaps its because of the habit of ignoring order of battle organization and assigning units to commanders willy-nilly (I note that the Austrians were doing this even in 1809).

There's this thread on TMP for the Prussian guards:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=297858

...which has a link to this page with strengths for the combined guards regiments (IR 6 and IR 15) at 3,134.

http://www.napoleon-online.de/html/pr_1 ... ation.html

That would be about 800 per battalion which is similar to the battalion strengths for the musketeer or grenadier battalions. I've no idea why at 6 companies their battalion strength would be similar to a musketeer battalion of 5 companies unless mobilization wasn't complete.

Anyway at 3,134 the book says 2 small units (8 bases), but you could compromise at 6 bases. Certainly, after Auerstadt, 4 bases is reasonable. I choose 8 bases as that seems to be in line with a musketeer regiment of 2 battalions = one small unit. It's not inconsistent with the 1813 Prussian lists either when there was one guard regiment of 3 battalions and a guard jager battalion.

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:30 am
by shadowdragon
hazelbark wrote:I think part of the 06-07 Prussians and Russians. (possibly 05 Austrians and Russians) need to better reflect their command and control handicaps. I think it was a real lost opportunity to not reflect these better.

Limit them to less divisions (unless allied).
Limit the first couple Divisional commanders to just Competent.
Require a division to have more units if the above doesn't work. This will create cumbersome maneuver and harder to rally.
Then the Prussian infantry should likely have better firepower at close range. Veteran?
Probably only letting brigade commanders attach to cavalry.

In short the Prussians should if the French walk straight into them, be quite effective.
There was a message but I see it got like lost. Can't remember what I wrote. Not important I'm sure.

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:13 am
by BrettPT
hazelbark wrote:I think part of the 06-07 Prussians and Russians. (possibly 05 Austrians and Russians) need to better reflect their command and control handicaps. I think it was a real lost opportunity to not reflect these better.
It looks like we'll have a chance to revisit the lists after v2 comes out.
- all should beware of sounding like an expert for a particular list as you might find yourself pressganged into tidying it up for v2 :twisted:

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:05 pm
by hazelbark
shadowdragon wrote: For what it's worth I've found quite a few order of battle inconsistencies for the Prussians. Perhaps it's because of the debacle so soon after the war began and perhaps its because of the habit of ignoring order of battle organization and assigning units to commanders willy-nilly (I note that the Austrians were doing this even in 1809).
Nafziger has it lower, but as you said varied accounts. While he is prolific, I am not judging which is better. But you're right Nafziger's numbers would be a large unit.

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:45 pm
by shadowdragon
hazelbark wrote:
shadowdragon wrote: For what it's worth I've found quite a few order of battle inconsistencies for the Prussians. Perhaps it's because of the debacle so soon after the war began and perhaps its because of the habit of ignoring order of battle organization and assigning units to commanders willy-nilly (I note that the Austrians were doing this even in 1809).
Nafziger has it lower, but as you said varied accounts. While he is prolific, I am not judging which is better. But you're right Nafziger's numbers would be a large unit.
Nafziger has 47 officers + 1,523 other ranks for the 15th regiment but does not include the Leib battalion of 15 IR. There's some uncertainty about it but apparently, judging from the TMP discussion it appears it was there. If so, 15 IR would be 50% larger. Nafziger list the Garde Grenadier Bn (IR 6) as 25 officers and 756). So it pretty much agrees with my link and depends on whether or not one includes the Leib Bn / 15 IR.

FYI - one the "Prussian Order of Battle at Auerstadt", Nafziger lists Saxe-Weimar. Saxe-Weimar was not at Auerstadt but to the west of Jena.

One day I will suck it up and purchase this book...

https://www.amazon.com/Napoleons-Apogee ... 0982270348

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:54 pm
by hazelbark
shadowdragon wrote: FYI - one the "Prussian Order of Battle at Auerstadt", Nafziger lists Saxe-Weimar. Saxe-Weimar was not at Auerstadt but to the west of Jena.
Your Saxe-Weimar reference is a great example of Nafziger conducting archeology with a steam shovel not a known for delicate nuance. Sadly there are more.

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:48 am
by shadowdragon
hazelbark wrote:
shadowdragon wrote: FYI - one the "Prussian Order of Battle at Auerstadt", Nafziger lists Saxe-Weimar. Saxe-Weimar was not at Auerstadt but to the west of Jena.
Your Saxe-Weimar reference is a great example of Nafziger conducting archeology with a steam shovel not a known for delicate nuance. Sadly there are more.
Sucked it up and ordered Napoleons apogee. Will have to lay off ordering minis for a bit. :(

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:21 am
by richafricanus
When you say "Napoleon's Apogee", are you referring to Nafziger's book on Napoleon's 1814 campaign? If so, it's very heavy reading and that's from someone who doesn't mind detail. It's just written in such a dull style - no story-telling like John Gill on 1809. Just mountains of facts piled on top of each and then a few more added in case there were any survivors from the first salvo.

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:26 am
by richafricanus
I think part of the 06-07 Prussians and Russians. (possibly 05 Austrians and Russians) need to better reflect their command and control handicaps. I think it was a real lost opportunity to not reflect these better.

Limit them to less divisions (unless allied).
Limit the first couple Divisional commanders to just Competent.
Require a division to have more units if the above doesn't work. This will create cumbersome maneuver and harder to rally.
Then the Prussian infantry should likely have better firepower at close range. Veteran?
Probably only letting brigade commanders attach to cavalry.

In short the Prussians should if the French walk straight into them, be quite effective.
If you did this, wouldn't it make the list unusable in a Wargames context? Because you don't pay points for a balanced command structure (beyond the points costs of generals), an army with say a minimum of 5 units per division, may save 30 points on a Div General but be crippled by command control problems.

Re: Prussian Army 1806-07 Adaptations

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:56 pm
by shadowdragon
richafricanus wrote:When you say "Napoleon's Apogee", are you referring to Nafziger's book on Napoleon's 1814 campaign? If so, it's very heavy reading and that's from someone who doesn't mind detail. It's just written in such a dull style - no story-telling like John Gill on 1809. Just mountains of facts piled on top of each and then a few more added in case there were any survivors from the first salvo.
I'm referring to Scott Bowden's translation of Bressonet's French tactical study. I've got it on order and should arrive any day now. I'll post something nice I get to browse through it.