best way to beat romans using a gelt army

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lawrenceg
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Re: Celtic army

Post by lawrenceg » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:46 pm

ravenflight wrote:If you disrupt him I'm sure you'd prefer to be Heavy, but you've got the upper hand then anyway.
Disrupted armoured skilled sword still have the upper hand versus Protected sword, especially MF.
Lawrence Greaves

deadtorius
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Post by deadtorius » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:59 pm

My only advice is hope for a hill and stay on top of it or stick to the bad terrain with your medium foot.
uphill you get a + which helps to even the odds out in a bad situation, if you can force him to fight disordered he is at least at a dice loss and you will still be at 4 dice.

Unless you can manage a miracle and get on the flanks or rear not much you can do but hope for lots of 6's for you and 2's for him so he can't re-roll 1's.

Have done many games with Spanish versus Romans and unless using the drilled Sertorius version of Spanish its pretty much always Roman victories, only been lucky with the Spanish a few times.

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Post by ethan » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:23 pm

I agree it is a tough fight some things to consider that might help:

You should have roughly twice as many bases (granted they are probably half as effective or less...) anyway take advantage of the numbers.

I have seen the numbers game work a couple of times and it usually involves somethign liek teh following:

Use and IC and copious rear support. What you want to have happen is that the Romans have to grind down your barbarians with casaulties and not morale tests to the greatest extent possible. If you need to kill 3-4 elements out of an 8-10 element BG that can be a time-consuming process. This is a big argument in favor of running heavy foot barbarians instead of medium foot.

You have to be ready to put your IC with a BG (thoguh not fighting) that is in a key position. An IC and rear support give you a +3 on morale tests. In impact the worst loss you can suffer will give you a -3 test and in melee it is -2 (assuming you are in good order). So with an IC+rear support you are likely to survive any combate in good order. Similarly, be ready to put your TCs where needed to help with morale. I would consider going with an IC+3TC command group.

Rear support is obviously key, plan the army and deployment around it.

Try and make teh Romans come to you and DO NOT let your army be picked apart in small groups. If you deploy the barbarians very broadly across the table the Romans will get to one part before the rest can come help. Over and over again in FoG I have lost games I thought I should win when my flanking troops were too far away to be useful. Your 8 element average battle group is going to die with 3 casaulties even if it survives every moral test. This means you have a timeline of something like (Roman Impact, Roman Melee, Barbarian Melee) as a worst case. If you are not ready to hurt the Romans in the turn after they charge you have a problem. It may also be an argument for 10 element BGs, they will probably survive an extra turn. If the Romans break through they are drilled adn will immediately reform to meet your charge coming one turn too late and kill them as well.

Plan how your flank attacks will work, you need to drive off skirmishers as well as have troops to help your main line. Remember the Romans can easily turn 90 and attack your flank instead of your main line...In that case your main line needs to be equally ready to help...

deadtorius
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Post by deadtorius » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:27 pm

Using Spanish we found the same thing occurred against MRR, the Spanish would win on both flanks but would fail to wheel into the Romans for any kind of flank attack. I agree that you want to hold off hitting the Romans as long as you can, use your lights within 6MU to keep them from getting double moves, I like to have a general start the game with the LH or LF and double move them up to the Romans to stop those double moves. Roman heavies are slow if they only get single moves each turn.
I think some good advice has been given it is not an easy thing to beat Romans with a barbarian army, but if you succeed it is well worth the bragging rights.
Good luck and good die rolls to you.

Eques
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Post by Eques » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:25 am

I'm glad that it's very difficult to beat romans as barbarians. it is supposed to be an historical simulation game after all. just look at what happened to boudicca and vercingetorix - both competent generals fielding massive armies. the greatest barbarian victory at teutoberg wald was achieved through treachery, ambush and attrition not an open pitched battle.

I also like the way the rules replicate roman dominance without recourse to special rules.

I think the satisfaction in playing barbarians against romans should come from near victories, heroic defeats or just springing a few surprises on your opponent. and of course the occasional win would feel like getting you century in cricket.

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Post by Intothevalley » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:58 am

I think it's hard to beat Roman Legionaries with most other infantry. I think the only infantry that can stand against them are other Legionaries! Whenever I've faced them, I avoid them like the plague and go for the supports, and only engage the Legions once I can get into the flanks. I've never played with a barbarian foot army before, but can imagine it's very hard for them to do this!

Blathergut
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Post by Blathergut » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:39 am

Pikes are unpleasant. :shock:

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Post by ShrubMiK » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:10 pm

"it is supposed to be an historical simulation game after all."

True, but not quite the point here...

The complaint is not that base for base Romans out perform Celts, Germans, Franks etc. But rather that even with the increased cost of the Romans , which means they have a significantly smaller army, it still isn't a balanced matchup (i.e. both armies have roughly equal chance to win if controlled by players of roughly equal skill).

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Post by recharge » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:51 pm

Blathergut wrote:Pikes are unpleasant. :shock:
Well Saturday at Fall In my 4 BG's of pike went toe to toe with 4 BG's of Legionaires. It wasn't pretty!

Three of mine broke and ran for their life and 1 one of his. Yes, I got creamed :oops:


John

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Post by Blathergut » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:53 pm

recharge wrote:
Blathergut wrote:Pikes are unpleasant. :shock:
Well Saturday at Fall In my 4 BG's of pike went toe to toe with 4 BG's of Legionaires. It wasn't pretty!

Three of mine broke and ran for their life and 1 one of his. Yes, I got creamed :oops:


John
And just as often the opposite is true. In a game this weekend 3 pike blocks vs 3 Roman superior 4paks...alll three Roman paks were ground down to two bases remaining...to almost no casualties or disruption to the pikes...and finally, 1 by 1, they lost a third base and shattered. So it usually comes down to dice, luck, and some timing. That's what makes it fun. Even the much maligned barb hordes actually have a chance...if they do more in impact...if the roman fails the test/loses a base...I enjoy the Spanish hordes.

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