Auxilia & Thureophoroi/Thorakitai - advance notice

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Post by nikgaukroger » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:16 pm

hazelbark wrote: Also I don't think all LF are getting this protected Lt spear sword. Only a few. An not raly in armies that are uber strong.

JLS, Sw will certainly be a minority.
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Post by Maniakes » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:18 pm

hazelbark wrote:Also I don't think all LF are getting this protected Lt spear sword. Only a few. An not raly in armies that are uber strong.
So most LF will still be --POA in melee to any MF who are protected and sword or spear and will still be dominated by MF. But this could almost create a new troop type - "Hard LF" for some armies (Late romans, Hellenistic, perhaps Byzantine) that might match a historic ability they had (depending on your view of the evidence).

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Post by madaxeman » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:17 pm

Intothevalley wrote:The proposed changes to allow LF full dice in terrain and for HF to move 4 MU when more than 6 MU from enemy seem to me to be a massive gimping of MF. What are the advantages of MF? Ability to fight in terrain and faster movement as I see it, and these are essentially being eroded by the proposed buffs to LF and HF.
I guess it kinda depends if these new uber-LF are allowed to charge non-lights. If they can't initiate combat, its going to take some thinking about...
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Post by philqw78 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:12 am

madaxeman wrote:I guess it kinda depends if these new uber-LF are allowed to charge non-lights. If they can't initiate combat, its going to take some thinking about...
See

"With the clock creeping closer to the close of the competitive combats for the day, the riled romans discovered a devastating disruptive development as they were charged in the flank by dastardly demonic dodging diddly little javelinmen in the deepest dark depths of the deeply disrupting forest (which is apparently allowed in the rules)."

at

http://www.madaxeman.com/reports/britcon_2009_4.php
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

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Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:03 am

philqw78 wrote:
madaxeman wrote:I guess it kinda depends if these new uber-LF are allowed to charge non-lights. If they can't initiate combat, its going to take some thinking about...
See

"With the clock creeping closer to the close of the competitive combats for the day, the riled romans discovered a devastating disruptive development as they were charged in the flank by dastardly demonic dodging diddly little javelinmen in the deepest dark depths of the deeply disrupting forest (which is apparently allowed in the rules)."

at

http://www.madaxeman.com/reports/britcon_2009_4.php
And which would not disrupt the MF you will note, even with the new rules.

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Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:04 am

Tim, we would welcome your input in the beta.

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Post by madaxeman » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:01 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:Tim, we would welcome your input in the beta.
Work means I literally haven't got time to play anything at the moment. I think I have managed 1 game of any type since Usk, and excluding Usk, only 2 since Warfare.
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Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:01 pm

madaxeman wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:Tim, we would welcome your input in the beta.
Work means I literally haven't got time to play anything at the moment. I think I have managed 1 game of any type since Usk, and excluding Usk, only 2 since Warfare.
:(

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Post by waldo » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:23 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
waldo wrote: Hmm - so the bog standard barbarian MF protected foot is on equal POA (in melee) and equal dice as Euzonoi even though they have more men fighting?

Are you assuming that a LF base represents less men than a MF one? If so it is an incorrect assumption.
If there aren't fewer men in an LF base why do they shoot with fewer dice than MF? What are the rest doing?

Walter

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Post by rbodleyscott » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:45 pm

waldo wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:
waldo wrote: Hmm - so the bog standard barbarian MF protected foot is on equal POA (in melee) and equal dice as Euzonoi even though they have more men fighting?

Are you assuming that a LF base represents less men than a MF one? If so it is an incorrect assumption.
If there aren't fewer men in an LF base why do they shoot with fewer dice than MF? What are the rest doing?
Running about.

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Post by Intothevalley » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:06 pm

hazelbark wrote:
Intothevalley wrote:So will there be a point to having MF in the game now? Other than the right to hold and use a missile weapon?
You realize that right now LF get 1 per 2 baess in uneven still. So that is where MF will domiante them.

Also I don't think all LF are getting this protected Lt spear sword. Only a few. An not raly in armies that are uber strong.
So MF retain an ability they had under version 1, while losing several advantages - that doesn't sound like a fair swap to me unless you drop the points for MF.

And yes, very often the MF will be ++ in melee versus LF (not MF with heavy weapon though...), but the LF player still has the option of fleeing, and should they finally get cornered or the LF player deems it time to close up, they won't be quite the speed bump they used to be. Then of course there is the crap shoot of impact, and a lot of LF have light spear capability, so evens in melee against anything but impact foot (as far as I can recall) and a plus against most missile foot - that might be deemed a risk worth taking with some cheap LF javelinmen, especially if they've had a chance to soften the MF up with shooting beforehand. I'd say that most players, should this change go through, will be taking LF as their premier rough terrain troops, and leave the MF on the shelf. Of course those with MF heavy armies will have to ask themselves different questions (such as 'do I really like this army that much?').

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Post by Strategos69 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:16 pm

Intothevalley wrote: Of course those with MF heavy armies will have to ask themselves different questions (such as 'do I really like this army that much?').
With the changes in HF movement, the point is that maybe some of those armies involving only MF might not be MF anymore but HF. Italian foot and alike would fit in that category better.

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Post by marty » Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:04 am

MF are definitely the big losers under the proposals at the moment (especially drilled ones). Not all of them can be reclassified as HF (BandG or EofD anyone?). There could, however, be more proposals to come and then there is always the rejigging of the points system so I wouldn't despair just yet.

Martin

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Post by waldo » Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:40 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
waldo wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:
Are you assuming that a LF base represents less men than a MF one? If so it is an incorrect assumption.
If there aren't fewer men in an LF base why do they shoot with fewer dice than MF? What are the rest doing?
Running about.
I suppose that is why the LF shooting at the back of a Viking shieldwall are so ineffective. It's a wonder no one ever told them they could stop running around and start shooting.

Walter

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Post by zocco » Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:01 pm

Strategos69 wrote:
Intothevalley wrote: Of course those with MF heavy armies will have to ask themselves different questions (such as 'do I really like this army that much?').
With the changes in HF movement, the point is that maybe some of those armies involving only MF might not be MF anymore but HF. Italian foot and alike would fit in that category better.
I would say that many Far Eastern MF probably had no bad going ability either (merely a vulnerability to mounted in the open) so how they would be classified would be interesting.

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Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:46 pm

Again to keep people not on the beta in the loop on these troops.
v2 beta wrote:
Further thoughts on this tricky issue after further reflection by the team.

The previous suggestion of euzonoi and levis armaturae being allowed to be deployed as LF, Protected, Javelins, Light Spear, Swordsmen, and for LF to count full combat dice in Rough and Difficult terrain has been superseded by the following:


Thureophoroi/Thorakitai

HF, Drilled, Protected/Armoured, Offensive Spear

At deployment may instead be deployed as Euzonoi:

MF, Drilled, Protected, Light Spear, Swordsmen or LF, Drilled, Protected, Javelins, Light Spear


Principate Auxilia

HF, Drilled, Armoured, Light Spear, Swordsmen

At deployment may instead be deployed as Levis Armatura Auxilia:

MF, Drilled, Protected, Light Spear, Swordsmen or LF, Drilled, Protected, Javelins, Light Spear


Principate Lanciarii

As currently but at deployment may instead be deployed as:

LF, Drilled, Protected, Javelins, Light Spear


Dominate field army infantry

Legiones and Auxilia are merged into a single category all of which are HF, Superior can be Impact Foot, otherwise Light Spear.

At deployment up to 1/3 of such BGs can be deployed as troops operating Velitiis, Levis Armaturae Auxiliis or similar:

MF, Drilled, Protected, Light Spear, Swordsmen or LF, Drilled, Protected, Javelins, Light Spear


Foederate field army infantry

All HF as above, all Light Spear as none can be Superior. Alternative deployment to be decided as Early Byzantine (and Maurikian?) infantry may need to be reconsidered as part of v2 lists which may impact on these.


Related info

Roman BGs with 1/3 bases as LF still have 1/3 of their bases as LF, Unprotected, Bow when the HF are alternatively deployed as MF or LF.

The numbers of thureophoroi, etc. that can be alternatively deployed will probably be capped in a number of lists – this to be decided at a later date should we go with the above model.

Other lists with thureophoroi-style and/or Roman-style troops will, of course, need to be brought into line (i.e. HF) and will probably not get the alternative deployment options - e.g. the militia in the Bosporan list.

Hellenistic lists will probably be allowed to deploy their "elite" pikemen (Argyraspides, Agema) as MF, Drilled, Protected, Light Spear, Swordsmen at deployment in the same way that the Alexandrian list allows.

LF combat dice as per v1.


As ever, please note that this is not finalised and further changes may occur.

E&OE
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Post by jonphilp » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:50 pm

Looks good for the Principate if at last I can have MF & HF Auxillia battlegroups on the battlefield at the same time. I trust the Auxilia will not all have to rated the same as currently in "Legions Triumphant". My one question is why Auxilia lose the armoured option when they become MF. Why did the Romans spend so much time drilling if they could not be flexible in their deployment (Legionaries & Auxilia) on the battlefield , I doubt that if they came to battlefield and adopted a looser formation they went back to camp for a quick change of kit.

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Post by VMadeira » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:04 pm

Thanks for the update!
These changes without any testing on my side, seem very positive.

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Post by ValentinianVictor » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:12 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:Again to keep people not on the beta in the loop on these troops.
v2 beta wrote:
Further thoughts on this tricky issue after further reflection by the team.

The previous suggestion of euzonoi and levis armaturae being allowed to be deployed as LF, Protected, Javelins, Light Spear, Swordsmen, and for LF to count full combat dice in Rough and Difficult terrain has been superseded by the following:


Thureophoroi/Thorakitai

HF, Drilled, Protected/Armoured, Offensive Spear

At deployment may instead be deployed as Euzonoi:

MF, Drilled, Protected, Light Spear, Swordsmen or LF, Drilled, Protected, Javelins, Light Spear


Principate Auxilia

HF, Drilled, Armoured, Light Spear, Swordsmen

At deployment may instead be deployed as Levis Armatura Auxilia:

MF, Drilled, Protected, Light Spear, Swordsmen or LF, Drilled, Protected, Javelins, Light Spear


Principate Lanciarii

As currently but at deployment may instead be deployed as:

LF, Drilled, Protected, Javelins, Light Spear


Dominate field army infantry

Legiones and Auxilia are merged into a single category all of which are HF, Superior can be Impact Foot, otherwise Light Spear.

At deployment up to 1/3 of such BGs can be deployed as troops operating Velitiis, Levis Armaturae Auxiliis or similar:

MF, Drilled, Protected, Light Spear, Swordsmen or LF, Drilled, Protected, Javelins, Light Spear


Foederate field army infantry

All HF as above, all Light Spear as none can be Superior. Alternative deployment to be decided as Early Byzantine (and Maurikian?) infantry may need to be reconsidered as part of v2 lists which may impact on these.


Related info

Roman BGs with 1/3 bases as LF still have 1/3 of their bases as LF, Unprotected, Bow when the HF are alternatively deployed as MF or LF.

The numbers of thureophoroi, etc. that can be alternatively deployed will probably be capped in a number of lists – this to be decided at a later date should we go with the above model.

Other lists with thureophoroi-style and/or Roman-style troops will, of course, need to be brought into line (i.e. HF) and will probably not get the alternative deployment options - e.g. the militia in the Bosporan list.

Hellenistic lists will probably be allowed to deploy their "elite" pikemen (Argyraspides, Agema) as MF, Drilled, Protected, Light Spear, Swordsmen at deployment in the same way that the Alexandrian list allows.

LF combat dice as per v1.


As ever, please note that this is not finalised and further changes may occur.

E&OE
For the Dominate lists for the troops able to deploy as 1/3 MF/LF it would perhaps be better to call the LF 'exculcatores' as per Vegetius.

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Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:07 pm

Not really - I'll go with the bloke who actually served in the army, not the one who just copied things :P
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