AoW Newbie....

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whitehorses
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AoW Newbie....

Post by whitehorses » Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:57 pm

Hello


Am quite excited by the AoW feedback & all the games being playtested, eagerly awaiting the issue of the ruleswhenever they issued. I'm intrigued by the new lists & how each Armylist might be redefined.
For instance, would Numidians be Drilled Elite Light Horse(no armour) able to shoot with javelins , or Welsh Spearmen be Undrilled Close Order Auxilia with Spears?

Also how are Wagon Laagers defined? Are they part of a BG, or seperate ? And how will Warwagons work?

Interesting to note that Elephants are now the toptastic troop out there - would it be unfair to have Routed or Fragmented Elephants to go on a Rampage towards the nearest troops - be they enemy or otherwise?


Cheers,
Jer

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Post by neilhammond » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:45 pm

Hi,

Numidians would be undrilled light horse, unprotected, armed with javelin and able to use them to shoot or fight. Skirmishers are the most flexible type in manoeuver, so undrilled and drilled light troops have the same manoeuver capability. Whilst the are unprotected, light horse not as vulnerable to shooting as unarmoured cavalry so they can get away with being unprotected. Being unprotected will only start to matter if they get into combat with non-skirmishers - which Numidians didn't do unless the opponents were worn down. I'm not sure how Welsh spearmen would be classified - possibly undrilled, protected, medium foot defensive spearmen?

I think the rules authors are still experimenting with war wagons.

Neil

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Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:09 pm

It is often suggested that Numidians be graded as elite (in various rules systems). However, in AoW they don't need to be upgraded to elite to achieve all of their historical feats. Allowing light horse with javelins to shoot (a short distance) and to evade enemy charges is all that is necessary to accurately model their historical behaviour and make them an effective and useful part of the armies in which they historically fought.

whitehorses
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Post by whitehorses » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:39 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:It is often suggested that Numidians be graded as elite (in various rules systems). However, in AoW they don't need to be upgraded to elite to achieve all of their historical feats. Allowing light horse with javelins to shoot (a short distance) and to evade enemy charges is all that is necessary to accurately model their historical behaviour and make them an effective and useful part of the armies in which they historically fought.
But if they were supposed to be the dogswotsitsnames on the Battlefield - Carthage & Rome both wanted them, bigtime - how are they better than any other Light Horse? Would Huns & Mongols be as good, or better because they had armour?


Cheers,
Jer

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Post by rbodleyscott » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:47 pm

In AoW troops' Quality rating is independent of their fighting style. Therefore any especially effective exponents of a fighting style can be rated as Superior or Elite. The army lists govern which troops can be so upgraded. Where there is room for speculation, a choice of Quality rating is given.

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Post by whitehorses » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:07 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:In AoW troops' Quality rating is independent of their weaponry. Therefore any specially effective exponents of their fighting style can be rated as Superior or Elite.
So skirmishers like Peltasts or Handgunners might be better quality than your bogstandard Foot archers/javelinmen, & likewise Mongol Light Horse will be nearer the top end of their troop type?

Also, how will Warband be redefined, if any? Will they treated as Kn are now, required to pass Cohesion Tests before they go impetuous? Or the better quality of Wb be able to throw weapons at close range before engaging in melee? Or will they just get plusses to their initial Combats?


Cheers,
Jer

shall
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Post by shall » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:50 am

Some armies do indeed have elite light troops and average battle line troops. AOW manages to model troops by having a few different things - a;; individually really simple - going on at once: quality, arm, impacct POA, Melee POA, Missile POA..and this gives lits of room for accurate historical variations eg.

Mondol LH can be Superior, Armoured, with Bw and Sw making them very good in a light horse combat as well as skirmishing, and even able to join a fight with cavalry and knights in the right condoitions.

Ikko Ikki Mob can be Elite, unprotected. - - and are still rather fun. They still get the dice. Are relaly hard to bust in numbers as they don't run aaway much. But they never get an advatange in combat at all...but with lots of dice they are a problem due to the elite (high grade treacle).

It is ths 5 waay split that makes a big difference. So for numidians we give them Sw skill reflecting they were able in a melee as well shooting with javelins, meaning they can handle most enemy light horse in combat....or make the sup ...or both. Such grades for LH are not that common in their period so yes they are very good troops indeed. Inf act Riucharda an won 32-0 with an army of Moors at Usk.

Hope that hels get a sense of how it happens (no grading up above to be considered finalise!).

This ablity to grade in different ways is what is giving such a historical feel. We can neven model a Samurai like a proper Samurai!!

Si

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Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:54 am

So skirmishers like Peltasts or Handgunners might be better quality than your bogstandard Foot archers/javelinmen, & likewise Mongol Light Horse will be nearer the top end of their troop type?
This will be decided on a list by list basis. e.g. Mongol light horse certainly get the option to be Superior quality, as do Huns in their hey-day. Handgunners cause a -1 modifier on cohesion tests taken for being shot at by them. Cretan archers and Balearic slingers get the option to be Superior.

Superior quality allows re-rolls of dice throws of 1 when testing to hit or in cohesion tests. (Elite quality allows re-rolls of 1s and 2s. Poor quality forces re-rolls of 6s).
Also, how will Warband be redefined, if any?


Most will be Heavy or Medium Foot, Protected, Impact Foot, Swordsmen.
Will they treated as Kn are now, required to pass Cohesion Tests before they go impetuous?


All shock troops, whether drilled or undrilled, have to take a "Complex Move Test" not to charge if within charge reach of appropriate enemy. Drilled are slightly easier to halt than undrilled. There are no "impetuous" moves from further away from enemy.

Shock troops include:

Impact Foot (e.g. Warbands, Spanish, Dailami, Roman legionaries)
Pikemen
Offensive Spearmen (e.g. Hoplites)
Lancers (unless light horse) (e.g.Medieval Knights, Cataphracts and lancer Cavalry such as Alexander's companions, Sarmatians, Goths etc.)
Heavy and Scythed chariots.
Or the better quality of Wb be able to throw weapons at close range before engaging in melee? Or will they just get plusses to their initial Combats?
The effects of short range throwing weapons is included in the Impact Phase POAs (points of advantage) for Impact Foot. Impact foot will normally be on a net + Point of Advantage in the impact phase against all foot except 4 rank deep pikemen. This gives them approximately a 3.5 to 1 chance of winning the impact phase - whether that is decisive depends on whether the enemy then fail their cohesion test, which they have to take with a -1 modifier for being defeated by Impact foot in the Impact phase. If they do, they become disrupted. If the impact foot disrupt the enemy, they are likely to win the melee phase. If not, they may struggle, especially against steady spears or pikes. Roman Legionaries (in their hey-day) are superior, armoured and skilled swordsmen, which means they are very good in the melee phase even if they did not succeed in disrupting the enemy in the impact phase.

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Post by nikgaukroger » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:01 am

whitehorses wrote:
But if they were supposed to be the dogswotsitsnames on the Battlefield - Carthage & Rome both wanted them, bigtime - how are they better than any other Light Horse? Would Huns & Mongols be as good, or better because they had armour?
You have to be careful about how troops are graded - Numidians were in demand because they were about the only light horse around in the western Mediterranean at the time (the Captain Scarlet factor - its easy to be a hero when you're indestructable). However, they were beaten by Spanish equivalents.

As Richard has pointd out if used correctly and historically they will be very effective even though they are rated as "just" average quality.

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Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:29 am

shall wrote:So for Numidians we give them Sw skill reflecting they were able in a melee as well shooting with javelins.
Simon is mistaken. We don't give Numidians swordsmen skill because they avoided melee like the plague!

However, this did not prevent my Moorish light horse from defeating Cavalry in the game at Usk - by skirmishing with javelins until the enemy Cohesion collapsed. (Superior numbers also helped).
Last edited by rbodleyscott on Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

shall
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Numidians

Post by shall » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:37 am

Well richard had most of those in the game so I forgot :oops:

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Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:05 am

The AoW system allows us to model and give a historical flavour to many different types of light horse, rather than forcing them all into only a few categories.

Here are some historical examples of light horse, with their AoW capabilities listed in the format "Shooting/Impact/Melee"

Numidians: Javelins/Light Spear/-
Parthians: Bow/-/-
Steppe Nomads: Bow/-/Swordsmen. (Can alternatively be fielded as Cavalry)
Bedouin: -/Lancers/Swordsmen. (Can alternatively be fielded as Cavalry)
Lithuanians: Bow/Light Spear/Swordsmen. (Can alternatively be fielded as Cavalry)

They can be further differentiated according to quality and protection.
Last edited by rbodleyscott on Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by hammy » Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:07 am

rbodleyscott wrote:The AoW system allows us to model and give a historical flavour to many different types of light horse, rather than forcing them all into only a few categories.

Here are some historical examples of light horse, with their AoW capabilities listed in the format "Shooting/Impact/Melee"

Numidians: Javelins/Light Spear/-
Parthians: Bow/-/-
Steppe Nomads: Bow/-/Swordsmen. (Can alternatively be fielded as Cavalry)
Bedouin: -/Lancers/Swordsmen. (Can alternatively be fielded as Cavalry)
Lithuanians: Bow/Light Spear/Swordsmen. (Can alternatively be fielded as Cavalry)
You forgot one of my favourites:

Northern border horse, Protected (most LH are unarmoured), -, lance, sword

These types are devastating to pretty much all other skirmishers.

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Post by ars_belli » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:35 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:We don't give Numidians swordsmen skill because they avoided melee like the plague!

However, this did not prevent my Moorish light horse from defeating Cavalry in the game at Usk - by skirmishing with javelins until the enemy Cohesion collapsed. (Superior numbers also helped).
This is sounds very historical indeed! How do the rules avoid the kinds of gamey 'edge of the world' tactics against skirmishers found in some other rule sets, such as hiding heavy infantry in table corners, etc.?

Best wishes,
Scott K.

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Post by bryan » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:19 pm

Ooh,I'm excited that I might be able to field my Moorish army again. It was very challenging to win with in DBM, but easier not to lose which equal a frustrating game.
How amny bg's did you have, Richard?
what rough composition? Will my 400 points of DBM Moor be enough for AoW?

Thanks

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Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:31 pm

bryan wrote:Ooh,I'm excited that I might be able to field my Moorish army again. It was very challenging to win with in DBM, but easier not to lose which equal a frustrating game.
How amny bg's did you have, Richard?
what rough composition? Will my 400 points of DBM Moor be enough for AoW?
I was prevailed upon to change the organisation of the army before the game, but the original OOB had 19 BGs comprising a total of:

24 bases of Moorish Imitation Legionaries (HF, average, drilled, protected, - , impact foot, swordsmen)
28 bases of Moorish cavalry (LH, average, undrilled, unprotected, javelins, light spear, -)
18 bases of Moorish foot javelinmen (LF, average, undrilled, unprotected, javelins, light spear, -)
4 bases of Elephants
8 bases of Spanish scutarii (MF, average, undrilled, protected, - , impact foot, swordsmen)

This was the army of King Bogus of Mauretania - ally to the Caesarians in the Civil War in 47 BC.

(Note that "light spear" is effectively synonymous with javelins, but is what the javelins impact capability is called, because it also - in other armies - includes troops armed with light thrusting spears).

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Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:43 pm

ars_belli wrote:How do the rules avoid the kinds of gamey 'edge of the world' tactics against skirmishers found in some other rule sets, such as hiding heavy infantry in table corners, etc.?
1) Skirmishers and cavalry can shoot, so troops in "secure positions" are no longer secure against them.
2) Flank marches are allowed.
3) All non-skirmishers within 6 MUs (6" or 150mm) of any table edge (even their own base table edge) count as having threatened flanks - which gives them a -1 modifier on cohesion tests. This gets risky if they are being shot at or lose a close combat.
4) Shock troops (see above) must test not to charge enemy in reach - even skirmishers unless they are separated from them by their own skirmishers. (Foot don't have to test not to charge mounted). So shock troops cannot really hide in a corner because they are easy to pull out of line unless completely screened.

All this makes "corner sitting" a bad bet in AoW.

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Post by whitehorses » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:18 pm

hammy wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:The AoW system allows us to model and give a historical flavour to many different types of light horse, rather than forcing them all into only a few categories.

Here are some historical examples of light horse, with their AoW capabilities listed in the format "Shooting/Impact/Melee"

Numidians: Javelins/Light Spear/-
Parthians: Bow/-/-
Steppe Nomads: Bow/-/Swordsmen. (Can alternatively be fielded as Cavalry)
Bedouin: -/Lancers/Swordsmen. (Can alternatively be fielded as Cavalry)
Lithuanians: Bow/Light Spear/Swordsmen. (Can alternatively be fielded as Cavalry)
You forgot one of my favourites:

Northern border horse, Protected (most LH are unarmoured), -, lance, sword


That's lucky - I've just started painting up a WotR army - Lancastrian, of course! :)


Cheers,
Jer

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Post by ars_belli » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:48 pm

rbodleyscott wrote: 1) Skirmishers and cavalry can shoot, so troops in "secure positions" are no longer secure against them.
2) Flank marches are allowed.
3) All non-skirmishers within 6 MUs (6" or 150mm) of any table edge (even their own base table edge) count as having threatened flanks - which gives them a -1 modifier on cohesion tests. This gets risky if they are being shot at or lose a close combat.
4) Shock troops (see above) must test not to charge enemy in reach - even skirmishers unless they are separated from them by their own skirmishers. (Foot don't have to test not to charge mounted). So shock troops cannot really hide in a corner because they are easy to pull out of line unless completely screened.

All this makes "corner sitting" a bad bet in AoW.
Excellent! AoW is sounding beter and better all the time.

Cheers,
Scott K.

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