Knight-y Knight.....

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whitehorses
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Knight-y Knight.....

Post by whitehorses » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:27 pm

Are all Knights counted as Lancers?
Because although all Lancers are Knights, not all Knights are Lancers. e.g. English Men-at-arms.

Also, will all Knights have to roll *not* to go into melee? And will Drilled Knights have a better chance than their ill-disciplined brethren to avoid going in?

How do Mounted Shock Troops differ from Foot Shock Troops - do those receiving Charges get different Factors from Mounted, or are they the same?

Has anyone tried Medieval or Feudal Knights yet & how do they handle?


Cheers,
Jer with gazillions of questions LOL

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Post by nikgaukroger » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:35 pm

Not all Knights count as Lancers - those not so good with their lances do not get the Lancers impact PoA; a good example are the C15th Burgundian knights who were said to be unable to properly couch a lance.

Not all troops with the Lancers PoA are Knights either - Alexander's companions are a good example.

Knights with the Lancers PoA are shick troops and so have to test not to charge and, yes, drilled troops pass the test easier than undrilled ones.

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Post by ashur_dan » Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:50 am

Hi

Will my DBE German knights need to be redased? :shock:

regards

Stephen

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Post by stalins_organ » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:23 am

So lancers are "impetuous"....even when "regular"??

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Post by nikgaukroger » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:43 am

They are all Shock Troops which means they have to test to not charge enemy when they are close enough to make contact whether Drilled or Undrilled.

This is quite different from DBM Impetuous, for example, and, IMO, a major improvement :D

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Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:50 am

ashur_dan wrote:Hi

Will my DBE German knights need to be redased? :shock:

regards

Stephen
Sadly, one of the casualties of improved realism. There turns out to be no real historical evidence of German knights forming in deep "wedges" prior to 1450 AD. The rules do give benefit to forming any knights 2 deep - they are harder to inflict enough hits on to cause a Cohesion Test. Thus we came to the conclusion that no special rules were required for the deep formations used by German men-at-arms after 1450 AD.

You will not be forced to rebased your knights, though you will need to provide some single figures to allow for base removal. (As you do in DBM V3.1). However, your knights will be more flexible if you rebase them on single bases.

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Post by ashur_dan » Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:56 am

Hi Richard

Understood, one issue for me is that I've used Essex figures and ony have 5 figures per DBE, sadly lacking one figure if I were to rebase. Of course I would not recommend the 'tail waging the dog' approach (any more than it already is.)

regards

Stephen

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Post by whitehorses » Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:13 am

nikgaukroger wrote:They are all Shock Troops which means they have to test to not charge enemy when they are close enough to make contact whether Drilled or Undrilled.

This is quite different from DBM Impetuous, for example, and, IMO, a major improvement :D

Has anyone playtested a wall of Knights army yet - Normans, Goths, Med French et al?
I'm interested to know how they handle in games.....


Cheers,
Jer

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Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:51 am

whitehorses wrote:
nikgaukroger wrote:They are all Shock Troops which means they have to test to not charge enemy when they are close enough to make contact whether Drilled or Undrilled.

This is quite different from DBM Impetuous, for example, and, IMO, a major improvement :D

Has anyone playtested a wall of Knights army yet - Normans, Goths, Med French et al?
I'm interested to know how they handle in games.....


Cheers,
Jer
Knights fight with 2 dice per base in melee (front rank only), whereas cavalry only fight with 1 dice per base but can have 2 ranks fighting. Heavily armoured (post-1150 AD) knights will have armour advantage against armoured cavalry so can beat twice their number of cavalry in close combat. They are also good against foot other than spearmen or pikemen, and have a reasonable chance against spearmen. Charging 4-deep pikes is not recommended.

A Hungarian army consisting entirely of knights and light horse rolled over my Ottoman army. In other games where there were less knights, Ottomans and Tartars were able to avoid the knights or overwhelm them with numbers. A Crusader army consisting of a wall of spears and crossbows at one end and a wall of knights at the other end defeated my Seljuk Turk army.

So it does seem like the key to success with knights (against horse archer armies) is to keep them together in a solid wall so that they cannot be isolated and swarmed.

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Post by hammy » Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:43 am

[/quote]
Has anyone playtested a wall of Knights army yet - Normans, Goths, Med French et al?
I'm interested to know how they handle in games.....
[/quote]

My first test game was with Medieval French against Medieval German, essentially loads and loads of knights against some knighs and lots of spears. The French won but there have been quite significant changes in point costs of troops since then and at some point I will re run this matchup to see what impact the changes have.

Knights are OK against spear but most of the time they end up bouncing off and may take casualties in the process. If the knights manage to disrupt the spears then they can sweep them away. It felt like a reasonable mechanism.

Hammy

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Post by whitehorses » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:21 pm

hammy wrote:
Has anyone playtested a wall of Knights army yet - Normans, Goths, Med French et al?
I'm interested to know how they handle in games.....
[/quote]

My first test game was with Medieval French against Medieval German, essentially loads and loads of knights against some knighs and lots of spears. The French won but there have been quite significant changes in point costs of troops since then and at some point I will re run this matchup to see what impact the changes have.

Knights are OK against spear but most of the time they end up bouncing off and may take casualties in the process. If the knights manage to disrupt the spears then they can sweep them away. It felt like a reasonable mechanism.

Hammy[/quote]


Hmmm, looks like Lancers might be worth a pop yet :D
How do Lancers work against Roman Legionaries?

And can Lancers still dismount before or during the battle if they did so historically?


Cheers,
Jer

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Post by hammy » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:42 pm

whitehorses wrote:Hmmm, looks like Lancers might be worth a pop yet :D
How do Lancers work against Roman Legionaries?

And can Lancers still dismount before or during the battle if they did so historically?
Roman legionaries will be dissadvantaged at impact but the skill of the Romans with their swords will make the melee between then and Heavily armoured knights even so it will all depend on how well the Romans withstand the initial impact. It is certainly not as bad a fight for the legionaries as it is in DBM pre version 3.1 but is probably slightly more in favour of the knights than DBM 3.1

Hammy

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Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:28 pm

whitehorses wrote:And can Lancers still dismount before or during the battle if they did so historically?
At deployment time, yes. Immediately after both sides have deployed, yes. During the battle, no.

whitehorses
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Post by whitehorses » Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:34 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
whitehorses wrote:And can Lancers still dismount before or during the battle if they did so historically?
At deployment time, yes. Immediately after both sides have deployed, yes. During the battle, no.

Excellent! Will they dismount as Heavy Impact Foot troops, or will that depend on the type of Lancer?


Cheers,
Jer

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Post by nikgaukroger » Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:43 am

Knights mostly dismount as Heavy Weapon troops.

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Post by philqw78 » Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:05 pm

Which mounted troops will be allowed to dismount?

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Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:24 pm

philqw78 wrote:Which mounted troops will be allowed to dismount?
1) Ones that did so historically (As specified in the army lists)
2) Any if the enemy deploys field fortifications or war wagons

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Post by philqw78 » Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:26 pm

Also goes some way to answering one of my other Q's

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Post by rbodleyscott » Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:30 pm

philqw78 wrote:Also goes some way to answering one of my other Q's
Fortified camps exist, but do not count as Field Fortifications so do not give the enemy licence to dismount.

They are paid for in points, assumed to have a garrison, and resist capture - a dice throw of 5 or 6 is required to capture a fortified camp, or 6 if the attackers are mounted.

We wanted to get away from the unrealistic wargames tactic of armies using their baggage camp to secure one flank.

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Post by babyshark » Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:17 pm

Back to the subject of knights. How are cataphracts (Kn(x) in DBM terms) modelled in AoW?

Marc

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