Archers Ho!

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whitehorses
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Archers Ho!

Post by whitehorses » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:18 pm

Will there be much difference between the best quality archers through the Period, or will they be marked as average for the most part?

The Roman Auxillary Archers(Any idea who were the best archers of the dark ages?) to Welsh Archers to Cheshire Archers were the elite of their time;
They could outshoot poorer archers, javelins, & crossbowmen, were armoured & could go hand-to-hand if need be, & could kill Horse & poorly armoured Foot at a distance.

Seems a bit of a downer to call such men only average :(



Cheers,
Jer

hammy
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Post by hammy » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:49 pm

It depends on the archers...

In AOW archers range from:

Medium foot, Poor, undrilled, unprotected, bow, -, - (massed levy)

to

Medium foot, Superior, drilled, protected, bow, -, swordsmen (Janissaries)
or
Medium foot, Average, drilled, protected, longbow, -, swordsmen (100YW longbow)

Light foot archers don't have quite as much variation but Cretans are superior which makes quite a difference.

Hammy

whitehorses
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Post by whitehorses » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:40 pm

hammy wrote:It depends on the archers...

In AOW archers range from:

Medium foot, Poor, undrilled, unprotected, bow, -, - (massed levy)

to

Medium foot, Superior, drilled, protected, bow, -, swordsmen (Janissaries)
or
Medium foot, Average, drilled, protected, longbow, -, swordsmen (100YW longbow)

Light foot archers don't have quite as much variation but Cretans are superior which makes quite a difference.

Hammy


Why do Janissaries have the edge over English Longbowmen in being Superior & do the WotR Longbowmen get Superior as well?

Are Cretans only short range Bowmen (4" if memory serves for Long range for Short bows) or normal Bowmen?

Are Roman Auxillary Bowmen Medium foot, Average, drilled, protected, bow?
And was there a dearth of archery between the Fall of Rome & the Normans, or just mostly Horsearchers inbetween?



Cheers,
Jer

hammy
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Post by hammy » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:09 pm

whitehorses wrote:
hammy wrote:It depends on the archers...

In AOW archers range from:

Medium foot, Poor, undrilled, unprotected, bow, -, - (massed levy)

to

Medium foot, Superior, drilled, protected, bow, -, swordsmen (Janissaries)
or
Medium foot, Average, drilled, protected, longbow, -, swordsmen (100YW longbow)

Light foot archers don't have quite as much variation but Cretans are superior which makes quite a difference.

Hammy
Why do Janissaries have the edge over English Longbowmen in being Superior & do the WotR Longbowmen get Superior as well?

Are Cretans only short range Bowmen (4" if memory serves for Long range for Short bows) or normal Bowmen?

Are Roman Auxillary Bowmen Medium foot, Average, drilled, protected, bow?
And was there a dearth of archery between the Fall of Rome & the Normans, or just mostly Horsearchers inbetween?
The Janissaries were one of the elite formations of the Ottoman army. Yeoman longbowmen were just that yeomen. The 100YW archers do have longbow rather than bow which makes them significantly better (a whole POA) against armoured or heavily armoured targets than ordinary bow.

In the interests of simplification all foot bows have the same range. You could argue forever about the relative ranges of different bows. When you consider historical battles there are many references to foot archers out ranging mounted ones but not a lot where one type of archer out ranges another. If you were trying to produce a set of rules that would produce an accurate result for 3rd centrury BC Greeks against 100YW English there are a lot of other things that would need to be changed than just the range of Cretan archers. Essentially armies and weapons are classed to get the correct results against historical opponents. Out of era games are just that - a game.

Your thoughts on Roman auxiliary archers are correct. Their lack of the swordsman POA will hurt them in a prolonged melee but otherwise they are decent troops.

There are a lot of dark ages armies that have average undrilled unprotected bowmen but unless you are very carefull with them they have a tendancy to get beaten up :( There are also loads and loads of mounted archers in the period between the fall of Rome and the Normans.

Hammy

jre
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Post by jre » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:55 pm

Equipment makes a lot of difference. Protected archers will outshoot unprotected ones, while the English longbowmen, with that swordsman attribute, will have no qualms charging other foot once they are softened enough by shots...

Remember that any attribute you get, you pay for, and English longbowmen are expensive enough as they are now, twice as expensive as French archers for instance.

Longbowmen work quite well as they are, fearing only the heaviest foot or shock mounted if caught without set stakes.

Jos?©

whitehorses
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Post by whitehorses » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:21 pm

jre wrote:Equipment makes a lot of difference. Protected archers will outshoot unprotected ones, while the English longbowmen, with that swordsman attribute, will have no qualms charging other foot once they are softened enough by shots...

Remember that any attribute you get, you pay for, and English longbowmen are expensive enough as they are now, twice as expensive as French archers for instance.

Longbowmen work quite well as they are, fearing only the heaviest foot or shock mounted if caught without set stakes.

Jos?©

Interesting. So the Longbowmen should still be nails against the naff foot, both in archery & melee. Plus they should hurt the French Knights enough in Shooting, which is historical.

Works for me! If you want the best, you cough up the readies - & the famed English Longbowmen were certainly the dogswotsitsnames! 8) :twisted:

How do the Stakes work? Are they one-use only to be carried by the Longbowmen, & set at a point directly to their front?
And do stakes upset Shock Mounted & Heavy Foot in the same way?



Cheers,
Jer

jre
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Post by jre » Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:01 pm

Stakes are useful only against mounted and are not a given to deploy, so you can still be caught unready and ridden down (and can be ridden down even with stakes if there are enough knights). Dismounted men at arms will crush you if they reach you, so keep your billmen close... And if pikemen reach you in good order, not even the billmen can save you...

There is a reason the XVIth century has plenty of pikemen, and no archers...

Jos?©

whitehorses
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Post by whitehorses » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:47 pm

jre wrote:Stakes are useful only against mounted and are not a given to deploy, so you can still be caught unready and ridden down (and can be ridden down even with stakes if there are enough knights). Dismounted men at arms will crush you if they reach you, so keep your billmen close... And if pikemen reach you in good order, not even the billmen can save you...

There is a reason the XVIth century has plenty of pikemen, and no archers...

Jos?©
Then I shall have to depend on stout English Yeomanry to deter devilish Knights from a distance, & let them stumble over our fine Billmen
:D

So how & when do Stakes get deployed?


I thought it was because Gunpowder by then was less likely to explode & kill the shooter, & was more deadly at close range against armour? ^_~


What's he that wishes so?
My cousin Westmoreland?? Nay not so! For God, Harry & St. George!

Cheers,
Jer

whitehorses
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Post by whitehorses » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:57 pm

jre wrote:Equipment makes a lot of difference. Protected archers will outshoot unprotected ones, while the English longbowmen, with that swordsman attribute, will have no qualms charging other foot once they are softened enough by shots...

Remember that any attribute you get, you pay for, and English longbowmen are expensive enough as they are now, twice as expensive as French archers for instance.

Longbowmen work quite well as they are, fearing only the heaviest foot or shock mounted if caught without set stakes.

Jos?©


Hopefully a Wars of the Roses army will be an improvement on the DBM mess of the WotR army & have a good heady mix of Bills, Spears & Pikes to back up the Longbows. Should prove to be an interesting aermy to play with if so :)



Cheers,
Jer

shall
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Post by shall » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:30 pm

My son used WOR Enlgish at Usk and it was very good fun

6 BGs of Longbows
3 Bgs of billmen

and 3 BGs of scott common allies

+2 other BGs I can't quite remember

Formidable army. had a real tussle with an early imperial roman. Check out the Usk report.

Cheers

Si

whitehorses
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Post by whitehorses » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:39 pm

shall wrote:My son used WOR Enlgish at Usk and it was very good fun

6 BGs of Longbows
3 Bgs of billmen

and 3 BGs of scott common allies

+2 other BGs I can't quite remember

Formidable army. had a real tussle with an early imperial roman. Check out the Usk report.

Cheers

Si


Kewlness! Can't wait until the armylists come out (though sadly that might be closer to Winter 2007 than Spring 2007 ) so I can get weaving with reconfiguring my DBM WotR army into something hard & nasty!
I've always been interested in the WotR period, so it'll make a nice change to have something that can hurt other armies instead of being hurt all the time! LOL
Could I tease any details on what might be in the AoW armylist? I'm painting up some Irish Bonnachts at the mo, & it'd be handy if I didn't order too much (more) useless lead :oops:

BTW, how big can a BG be & how many bases within that BG do you have to Rout or Fragment before it breaks?


Cheers,
Jer

p.s. I'm now a Javelinman - Hurrah! How long before I become a Billman or a Longbowman? :wink:

shall
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Post by shall » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:00 am

BTW, how big can a BG be & how many bases within that BG do you have to Rout or Fragment before it breaks?
It depends. 4-6 is common for main cavalry BGs. 6-8 typical for drilled infantry. 8-12 often for the wrabnand types. Its carfeulyl balanced to give the small-quality vs large-Mob feel correctly.

If you take soemthing with a lot of Irish you can utilise a lot of bases od 3 to a base medium foot. I did a civil war and had 30+ bases of Irish on one side. Couldn't say what the final list will be but if you did 20 bases I expect you could use them.

Si

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Post by stalins_organ » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:16 am

whitehorses wrote:
Then I shall have to depend on stout English Yeomanry to deter devilish Knights from a distance, & let them stumble over our fine Billmen
You mean nothing like history at all then??!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

philqw78
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Post by philqw78 » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:32 am

how big can a BG be & how many bases within that BG do you have to Rout or Fragment before it breaks?
The whole Battle Group becomes disrupted, fragmented, and then breaks at the same time from what I have seen, a BG being a collection of units or a single large unit under a single junior commander. A Battle Line, BL, is a collection of BGs under a more senior commander. Once the Army is reduced to 50% effectiveness through disruption, fragmentation and rout it all goes home. But then I haven't seen the rules, just seen a few battles.

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