Shooting Ranges

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benny
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Shooting Ranges

Post by benny » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:18 pm

I think another thread indicated shooting ranges in a ratio of 2 units for javelins, 4 units for 'effective' range of bows and 6 units for 'long' range.

Is this correct? Where do slings, crossbows, longbows fit into the scheme?

Benny

ars_belli
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Re: Shooting Ranges

Post by ars_belli » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:07 pm

benny wrote:I think another thread indicated shooting ranges in a ratio of 2 units for javelins, 4 units for 'effective' range of bows and 6 units for 'long' range.

Is this correct? Where do slings, crossbows, longbows fit into the scheme?

Benny
From earlier threads on archers and shooting ranges, I pieced together the following:

Javelins & Handguns: 2 MUs effective range, no long range.
Slings & Horse Bows: 4 MUs effective range, no long range.
Foot Bows (including longbows and crossbows): 4 MUs effective range, 6 MUs long range.
Light Artillery: 6 MUs effective range, no long range.
Heavy Artillery: 6 MUs effective range, 12 MUs long range.

If any of the above are incorrect, or if there are others I may have missed, I am sure that the more experienced forum members will be able to 'fill in the blanks.'

Cheers,
Scott K.

rbodleyscott
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Re: Shooting Ranges

Post by rbodleyscott » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:05 pm

ars_belli wrote:Javelins & Handguns: 2 MUs effective range, no long range.
Slings & Horse Bows: 4 MUs effective range, no long range.
Foot Bows (including longbows and crossbows): 4 MUs effective range, 6 MUs long range.
Light Artillery: 6 MUs effective range, no long range.
Heavy Artillery: 6 MUs effective range, 12 MUs long range.
Spot on.

benny
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Re: Shooting Ranges

Post by benny » Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:36 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
ars_belli wrote:Javelins & Handguns: 2 MUs effective range, no long range.
Slings & Horse Bows: 4 MUs effective range, no long range.
Foot Bows (including longbows and crossbows): 4 MUs effective range, 6 MUs long range.
Light Artillery: 6 MUs effective range, no long range.
Heavy Artillery: 6 MUs effective range, 12 MUs long range.
Spot on.
Hmmmm, can't speak for others but to me these ratios don't quite add up. To demonstrate, if we take 'effective' bow range as 100m (perhaps on the short side but a round figure for discussion) then let's look at what sort of ranges we get:

'Long' range for heavy artillery is 300m. OK, this sounds reasonable enough.
'Long' range for bows (including crossbows) is 150m - seems rather short
Maximum range for light artillery is 150m - again seems extremely short for what we know of torsion catapults - or are these all 'heavy'?
Javelins with a range of 50m - now you've lost me - leaving aside specialised exceptions like Roman martiobarbulli (sp?) or Aztec style atlatl, I've never read anyone suggesting that hand hurled javelins could reach this range, 30m is far more realistic. However this would make the max range of bows 90m

It seems to me you are either greatly exaggerating the range of hand hurled missiles or greatly truncating the range of many other types.

Or am I missing something........

Confused

Benny

philqw78
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Post by philqw78 » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:23 am

2 MU for javelins is probably a mechanism to enable the rules to work. Otherwise 1 MU would mean that everybody could get into contact with javelinmen without ever being shot at. That or JDM and co are a bit thick, or at least senile. :lol:

rbodleyscott
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Re: Shooting Ranges

Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:42 am

benny wrote:It seems to me you are either greatly exaggerating the range of hand hurled missiles or greatly truncating the range of many other types.
The javelin scale is generous for practical game purposes. As only skirmishers (Light Foot and Light Horse) are allowed to shoot javelins, you can assume that individuals are running forward out of the main body to throw javelins. This is another reason why heavier troops do not get a distant shooting capability with javelins in AoW.

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Post by philqw78 » Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:52 am

I take it later Romans and Earlier Byzantines aren't getting darts then!

rbodleyscott
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Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:01 am

philqw78 wrote:I take it later Romans and Earlier Byzantines aren't getting darts then!
Not as a shooting weapon, no. Their hand-hurled weapons are considered part of their impact phase effect.

Later Roman legions metamorphose (in the lists) from impact foot, skilled swordsmen to light spear, swordsmen as missile weapons became lighter and quality of the troops (probably) declined. The lists have a long cross-over period when the designation is optional to allow players to choose their preferred interpretation. "Light spear" designation is not as good as "impact foot" designation against foot but is better against cavalry. (The longer range of the lighter javelins and darts allowing more to be thrown before the cavalry impact).

benny
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Re: Shooting Ranges

Post by benny » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:06 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
benny wrote:It seems to me you are either greatly exaggerating the range of hand hurled missiles or greatly truncating the range of many other types.
The javelin scale is generous for practical game purposes. As only skirmishers (Light Foot and Light Horse) are allowed to shoot javelins, you can assume that individuals are running forward out of the main body to throw javelins.
Hmmmmmm. Sounds suspiciously like the sort of fudge that AoW is supposed to be avoiding.

:shock:

Oh well, you'll just have to file me under unconvinced........

shall
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Post by shall » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:07 am

An nimportant principle in the rules is that when we look at anything that was thrown or shot we are asking:

1. Is this something that just preceded impact

2. Is this something that was repeated tactical doctrine and the users are therefore primarily shooters

If (1) then it gets folded into the IMACT POAs and treated as part and parcel of an overall approach/charge/countercharge/initial combat

If (2) the BG gets to shoot in the shooting phase

Hence Darts being covered as IMPACT under (1). A pilum is the most obivous (1). Itys thrown but just to get a great impact in thereafter.


Si

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Re: Shooting Ranges

Post by whitehorses » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:03 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
ars_belli wrote:Javelins & Handguns: 2 MUs effective range, no long range.
Slings & Horse Bows: 4 MUs effective range, no long range.
Foot Bows (including longbows and crossbows): 4 MUs effective range, 6 MUs long range.
Light Artillery: 6 MUs effective range, no long range.
Heavy Artillery: 6 MUs effective range, 12 MUs long range.
Spot on.


Can Bows & skirmishers shoot in both your move & your opponent's move? And do Art fire only in your move? Or can Light Arty fire in both moves?



Cheers,
Jer

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