Enjoyable II

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ravenflight
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Enjoyable II

Post by ravenflight » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:52 pm

Ok, second game tonight with the Drilled MF.

Lost the second game 19-6, but thoroughly enjoyed it.

Have decided that (at least in V1) Heavy Foot (esp undrilled) just make for a boring game, and luck compounds the lack of enjoyability.

Does anyone enjoy playing Undrilled HF?

grahambriggs
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Post by grahambriggs » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:23 pm

I enjoy using them; for example taking Later Crusaders with max HF armoured spears to a competition last year, though I did eventually drop the undrilled Hoplites in my Early Persians.

Undrilled HF are certainly a challenge, and need other troop types around that work with them. The crusaders had a unit of drilled on the end tho anchor the flank and lots of knights to provide a breakthrough force. In the EAP, they tended to get left behind by the rest of the army.

Being slow and unmanouverable they really need to be deployed in the right place and formation and have to get through the bounds quickly. Even so, you may find a slippery opponent gets away.

It's true though that drilled MF are far easier to play in v1.

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Post by philqw78 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:06 pm

HF are rubbish. I use them in numbers very rarely and never in competition. The only time I have counted on them as game changers, except for relying on them to be outflanked and die, is with Varangian Guard.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

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Post by ravenflight » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:01 pm

philqw78 wrote:HF are rubbish.
Pretty much. A major failing in the rules IMHO. I've decided that if I want to play I do so to enjoy... and I've enjoyed the couple of games with Drilled MF very much, so...

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Post by grahambriggs » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:03 pm

ravenflight wrote:
philqw78 wrote:HF are rubbish.
Pretty much. A major failing in the rules IMHO. I've decided that if I want to play I do so to enjoy... and I've enjoyed the couple of games with Drilled MF very much, so...
drilled MF are good, but all troop types have their achilles heel. Paradoxically, my Aztecs struggle against armoured HF and drilled knight combos!

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Post by hazelbark » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:44 pm

philqw78 wrote:HF are rubbish. I use them in numbers very rarely and never in competition.
That's because you play on the GB tournament circuit where the object isn't to win or have fun, but not to lose. Some of you have fun granted. :lol:

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Post by philqw78 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:47 pm

hazelbark wrote:
philqw78 wrote:HF are rubbish. I use them in numbers very rarely and never in competition.
That's because you play on the GB tournament circuit where the object isn't to win or have fun, but not to lose. Some of you have fun granted. :lol:
I thought the reason I didn't use HF was because they are rubbish.

They are certainly not fun. Tell me a fun undrilled HF army then Dan.
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Post by hazelbark » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:01 pm

philqw78 wrote:I thought the reason I didn't use HF was because they are rubbish.

They are certainly not fun. Tell me a fun undrilled HF army then Dan.
I thought you had a few years of training to let others do your thinking. :wink:

Merovingians
Visigoths
Galatians
Other hariry barbarian types.
Scots Continental
Rus
Viking
Anglo-Danes

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Post by ShrubMiK » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:31 pm

In my last game of FoG I tried using undrilled HF. 48 bases of germanic warband. In a Western Hun army. Yes I realise that's a bit silly. This was my latest attempt to try and come up with a reasonable Attila flavour army, which you would think shouldn't be that hard really!

And yes it was frustrating at times. My opponent refused to fight them, even though I had deliberately gone with "poor" to try to tempt him. And there were a couple of bounds in which a successul CMT for the end BG of HF might have enabled me to turn the battle. My supposedly best troops, the armoured bow cav, failed to do any shooting damage and were eventually ground down by his armoured lancer cav on one flank behind the line of the HF, hence losing me the battle, whilst most of his troops ran away from the HF in the centre and indecisive skirmishing between mostly LH took place on the other flank.

(As usual, it turned out not to be possible to have a decisive result within the 3 hours, but I would have been rolled up within a few more bounds.)


All of which I do call fun, in a twisted way. One day I will make Attila work!

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Post by grahambriggs » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:03 pm

Yes I think poor HF impact foot in 12s might be interesting. 60 points for something that can occupy quite a lot of table and is on 2 attrition points when they break could be interesting.

In terms of whether HF armies are "fun" or not it depends on the opposing army. What is not much fun is a monotype HF army blundering after a much more mobile foe and getting it's flanks savaged, or getting walloped in one area by hyper tough enemy.

However undrilled HF in a combined arms affair can be fun. I really liked using my unfashionable Merovingians - 32 war band bases and 28 average light spear cavalry - win or lose. They particularly enjoyed chewing up Shaun Drummond's Ottomans.

They'll be a bit better in v2, no doubt, so looking forward to using them in that.

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Post by ravenflight » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:52 am

hazelbark wrote:Viking
Sorry Mr. Bark, I cannot disagree with you more.

I love the Vikings. I have always had a Viking army. I used to make longships out of paperbark as a kid. I can play with them and enjoy it when things don't go well.

I don't use them coz they are boring, slow, and rubbish. Half your points can be taken out of the game JUST because you can't manouver.

I'm sad that they are Rubbish, but they are.

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Post by philqw78 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:40 am

hazelbark wrote:I thought you had a few years of training to let others do your thinking. :wink:


Visigoths
Galatians
Other hariry barbarian types.
Scots Continental
Rus
Viking
Anglo-Danes
And how are any of these fun. Sit 8 points of LF within 6 MU of half of them and they are taken out of the game. Then your opponent can destroy the rest of the army at his leisure.
phil
putting the arg into argumentative

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Post by Fluffy » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:59 pm

I think mass HF do make for a boring game because even if you win it's probably by moving roughly straight ahead and steam rolling everything in your path.

However some HF can be useful, to act as a wall ("you shall not pass" idea) or to turn PART of an army into a steam roller.

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Post by madaxeman » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:06 am

Fluffy wrote:I think mass HF do make for a boring game because even if you win it's probably by moving roughly straight ahead and steam rolling everything in your path.

However some HF can be useful, to act as a wall ("you shall not pass" idea) or to turn PART of an army into a steam roller.
A few problems with that theory;
- if the HF are protected they are pretty poor at functioning as a wall as they are vulnerable to being forced to take multiple CT's from enemy shooting, and are a target for anything with armour in combat.
- at a typical 7 points a base, they also aren't especially cheap.
- the armies they are found in tend not to have the option for 4 or 6 base foot units to act as cost effective rear support

Whether you are looking at spears, or impact foot swordsmen, your typical (protected) HF are troops who's best possible matchup is +1 at impact and evens in melee (and they will often be down in melee) are just not that great. If most opponents have enough maneuverability to choose their own matchups it's even worse.
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Post by Strategos69 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:09 am

Fluffy wrote:I think mass HF do make for a boring game because even if you win it's probably by moving roughly straight ahead and steam rolling everything in your path.
And that is a problem. Even when you win in a straight ahead fight, you barely can take advantage of your success and there is little domino effect on the enemy. Usually a successful HF BG is out for four turns, which means that its participation in the battle is over. Again, that is partly a fault of the You Move I Move sequence that makes that you fight twice and move only once.

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Post by mbsparta » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:42 pm

We play Germans against Principate Romans and it gives a good game ... Better if you use legionaries without SW. On a 6x4 table (28mm) there are a lot of Germans. I like 8's for German warriors, at least under v1.

I don't understand you guys sometimes. I know this is a tournament oriented gang. But making all the BG's generic chess-like pieces ruins the historic-ness of the game. Why don't we just have each army be a mirror of the other and then you can test your gamesmanship against your opponent and not blame the rules and/or army lists. You can have a blue army and a red army. Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Mike B

ravenflight
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Post by ravenflight » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:48 pm

mbsparta wrote:I don't understand you guys sometimes. I know this is a tournament oriented gang. But making all the BG's generic chess-like pieces ruins the historic-ness of the game. Why don't we just have each army be a mirror of the other and then you can test your gamesmanship against your opponent and not blame the rules and/or army lists. You can have a blue army and a red army. Zzzzzzzzzzzz
It's not about that at all.

It's about the fact (and I do believe that it's a fact) that HF armies (that is, an army with 2/3 of the elements as HF) are totally useless in open competition, make for a boring game in open competition, and lead to 6 (or however many games you play in the competition) games of frustration.

People can say "I used blah blah HF army and won x, y or z competition" or "use them in themes, they're fine". Both things may be true, but look at the rankings of the top armies. Not a HF army anywhere near the top, and that's especially true of Undrilled HF.

Now, I've played HF armies for a long time. I'm ranked in the top third of my nation, so not a brilliant player, but not a slouch either. I've DONE that ranking using HF armies, but have all but thrown in the game because of the frustration of playing HF armies. One of my regular opponents just did exactly that. I'm sure he'll come back, but in the mean time his Successor army is gathering dust.

These things don't happen because HF armies are excitement plus.

As I said, I nearly threw in the game... I checked out a drilled MF army and have had two very enjoyable games. It's a MASSIVE difference being able to actually respond to an enemy's concentration. In the first game I had a reasonable amount of poor luck in CMT's (rolling a succession of 3's) but was STILL able to respond to enemy concentrations. With the same rolls with HF I would have been slowly wheeling around like molasses in winter in in a vain attempt to keep the enemy off my flank while 1 unit of LF kept 3/4 of the army occupied. Sure, drilled HF would have been equally able to manouver in turns etc, but the distance covered would have been less.

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Post by ShrubMiK » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:13 am

Yeah. But look at it from another point of view for a moment Ravenflight. Let's paraphrase your response:

"Blah blah competition blah blah competition blah blah blah competition blah etc."

;)

I agree that undrilled HF are not the tool to use if you want to win (most) competitions, and if your defintion of fun includes (which is fair enough!) having a reasonable chance to win then they are not the best tool to use for a fun game in a competition for sure.


But still...do you not play games outside of a competition context? I don't play FoG much nowadays, partly because it seems to have become quite a stereotyped game. When I do, it seldom involves either side using any sort of tournament tiger army. To be fair, I don't think even then I would try using an (almost) all HF army that often. But Successor armies appear a lot. Even things like Gepids. And there was a hard-gought Gauls vs. Carthaginians not that long ago.

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Post by grahambriggs » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:20 am

This may be partly an "army that suits you" thing. The inability to close with the Saracens also wound up the crusaders.

When a clubmate and I took a largely HF crusader army to a competition last year we did so in the anticipation that at least one game would be trying to catch smoke, and the others our weight would give an advantage in. This proved correct and we had an enjoyable weekend.

Drilled MF armies have a downside in that if the snaky manouver doesn't work there is a lot that can beat them frontally.

I do think undrilled 75% Protected HF armies will struggle badly out of historical match ups. However, the problems of excessive manouver and "armour is too good/cheap" are at least known to the authors and a number of fixes suggested for a second version of the rules.

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Post by ravenflight » Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:53 am

ShrubMiK wrote:Let's paraphrase your response:
Well, lets paraphrase your response:

"So long as you create a tournament and/or friendly environment where undrilled HF will work... undrilled HF will work".

Which of course is another way of saying "yeah, they're shyte, but like poor unprotected mob, they have their uses... so long as they go up against poor unprotected mob."

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