Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

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zocco
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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by zocco » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:52 am

urbanbunny1 wrote:"Most expensive set of wargaming rules"

A certain other UK based war-games company wins that one I think. They have just released the latest version of their flagship set of rules and the cost is £75!

So, FoGAM rules for £25, bargin.

Slim
Not if you include the cost of an Ipad or such :shock:

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Jilu » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:16 am

Well the mistake might have been to sell the rules on Amazon.
I have a friend who has a shop and he had to buy the books at the price that Amazon was selling them.
This is a Niche product and would probably have been better of by selling them though the regular niche sellers, the games shops. Price could have been kept higher for the publishers.
We all know how things go when we go to conventions, we browse the shops and buy even if we do not need the product. All of us have figures and rulessets that we bought just in case of we might play that period/rules.
Being Niche, well why not publish it in lesser quality? i do not need color or hardback, i do not need to see the Osprey illustrations.
I can understand that Osprey has it difficult too seeing that you can now download the books for free and yes that is piracy, yet i still buy the books. Why? because when i paint i cannot do it while looking at a screen.

Why would i have to buy an Ereader to play a ruleset? maybe 5 to 10 years from now i will have to but now not yet.....

Print on demand might be the best solution for the rules if printing is not an option.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Strategos69 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:44 am

Jilu wrote:
Being Niche, well why not publish it in lesser quality? i do not need color or hardback, i do not need to see the Osprey illustrations.
I can understand that Osprey has it difficult too seeing that you can now download the books for free and yes that is piracy, yet i still buy the books. Why? because when i paint i cannot do it while looking at a screen.
I don't think that nowadays reducing the quality of your product is a way to go. Certainly it is for those who play a lot (your actual players), but not for the general public, the non tournament one, that has always been neglected in the strategies of the releasers of FoG. The only move for the non tournament players was translating the rules and that was to get more international competitions. All the other moves were more in the sense of tournament players (kind of army books, no campaign book, no update of scenarios or different battles settings). And in that regard the V2 does not seem to offer anything new for those players.

And that other big chunk of the market wants a nicely published ruleset that he can buy and feel ok with the purchase even if he will not be playing very often. Indeed for Osprey the cost that would be bigger for smaller companies (like obtaining all those illustrations) is more affordable: they just have to go through all the illustrations they have and put in the old ones plus a new one for the cover. If you check the main problem is not the layout (that increases the cost marginally as the number of copies increase), but what to do with the excessive storage. If you have planned and limited releases, the problem dissapears.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by madaxeman » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:57 am

Jilu wrote:I can understand that Osprey has it difficult too seeing that you can now download the books for free and yes that is piracy, yet i still buy the books. Why? because when i paint i cannot do it while looking at a screen.
Osprey's strategy with their existing books is that they are now being sold as downloadable pdfs (that can be copied), so they clearly do not have a problem with this format. I think this is because they agree with you - people prefer a hard copy book so they can look at the colour plates whilst painting.
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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Jilu » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:51 pm

madaxeman wrote:
Jilu wrote:I can understand that Osprey has it difficult too seeing that you can now download the books for free and yes that is piracy, yet i still buy the books. Why? because when i paint i cannot do it while looking at a screen.
Osprey's strategy with their existing books is that they are now being sold as downloadable pdfs (that can be copied), so they clearly do not have a problem with this format. I think this is because they agree with you - people prefer a hard copy book so they can look at the colour plates whilst painting.
well why not do the same with FOG ?

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by gelin » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:00 pm

I like many of the changes. However i think that the authors went on the other side in "nurfing" superior troops and Romans in particular.
I would also like to see attrition points lost when a CinC is killed.

As for the rules format i would really like to have them in hard copies even after some time from the electronic version launch.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by grahambriggs » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:39 pm

gelin wrote:I like many of the changes. However i think that the authors went on the other side in "nurfing" superior troops and Romans in particular.
I would also like to see attrition points lost when a CinC is killed.

As for the rules format i would really like to have them in hard copies even after some time from the electronic version launch.
Generally, I like the individual changes. In v1, superior and armoured is the default , so that needed treatment. Of course it might be that the overall effect overbalances things. I agree re format.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by marty » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:38 pm

If what is mentioned in the summary is all that has been done to effect superiors they will still be the default choice in V2.

I always favoured points changes for balancing superiors myself. I like the fact that superiors really are superior in FOG but they clearly weren't paying enough for the privelige.

Martin

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by GHGAustin » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:11 pm

Osprey is now in a bit of a bind because of Amazon. While Amazon is their biggest customer, they have lost most of their other small retailers. After all, as previously mentioned, we are paying almost as much for an Osprey book as Amazon is selling it. For that reason, I stopped selling Osprey military titles. It used to be that any hobby or game store would be stocked to some level with Men at Arms, Elite, Warrior, etc. No longer.

The FOG rules have sold very well because I have loyal customers. Also, when someone came into the store looking to get into ancients, we could go to the shelf, get the book and look through it. If it is in the customer's hands, the sale is half way there! I can't put an electronic version in a customer's hands.
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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Jhykronos » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:17 pm

GHGAustin wrote:The FOG rules have sold very well because I have loyal customers. Also, when someone came into the store looking to get into ancients, we could go to the shelf, get the book and look through it. If it is in the customer's hands, the sale is half way there! I can't put an electronic version in a customer's hands.
If their app were printable, the game-store friendliness issue would be resolved... they simply could put it on a CD bundled with a loosleaf printed hardcopy of the latest version.

- JDF

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by philqw78 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:00 am

Jhykronos wrote:If their app were printable, the game-store friendliness issue would be resolved... they simply could put it on a CD bundled with a loosleaf printed hardcopy of the latest version.
It would still look like pooh, they have split with Osprey so aren't going to be getting the nice artwork.
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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by prb4 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:40 am

...an electronic set of rules that will regularly be updated via the internet.

So to summerise,

In order for me to play an actual real game.
with real figures
on a real table
with a real person, actually there in front of me,
drinking my real beer...

I need an internet connection!

Now that is silly.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by batesmotel » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:23 pm

prb4 wrote:...an electronic set of rules that will regularly be updated via the internet.

So to summerise,

In order for me to play an actual real game.
with real figures
on a real table
with a real person, actually there in front of me,
drinking my real beer...

I need an internet connection!

Now that is silly.
The updates are planned to be something like annually or semi-annually at most so no you don't need an internet connection during a game! There are a number of downsides to the current implementation that Slitherine has for V2 but this isn't one of them.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Petefloro » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:16 pm

I think Slitherine should issue the v2 changes and clarifications as a free printable download.

I've played FoG miniatures rules for about 3 years and as we all know there are ambiguities and flaws in them - but I still think they are a very good set of rules.

However, I don't think making several changes and clarifications makes a v2.
That's a v1 service pack surely.
A free download will say thanks to all those players,like my self,who have bought the rules & lists in good faith and remained loyal to FoG despite some minor difficulties with them.

Then move forward with a full on all singing & all dancing ipad app.with stuff that's been suggested,that makes far better than a physical book - campaign apps, army generators, animated diagrams, etc.I'm sure it'll be good.

But for now, to assure players who don't have the relevant technology - a free download of the clarifications and changes please. Otherwise I think a lot of gamers,me included, will either stick with v1 or just use another set of rules.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by davesaunders23 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:07 pm

i really hate to say it but Simon has made some very good points below.

especially with regards the Ambush Alley rules which are printable and published by Osprey.... Dave:-

urbanbunny1 wrote:From my point of view, you have to be able to print off a copy of the rules.

Now, I'm a heavy iPad user as many of my Central London club team members will know, but, I dread the thought of having to take my iPad to a comp to flick thru the rules. The amount of times I've bumped something off the table, spilt my pint (yes, something to cry about) or something other wise stupid, I can just see my shiny iPad go off the table. Either that, or some half wit nick my iPad when I've turned around to heckle Paddy.

I love the idea of the rules being digital, but you need to have a method where the end player can print the rules off. When I get a new set of rules, I write lots of tips and tricks in the rules to remind myself of things that I need to know, or clarify in the way I understand.

Osprey already have this in place with their partnership with Ambush Alley. They allow you to buy either a physical copy of the rules, or, wait for it.... a PDF. You can then happily print the rules off at home and go from there. I can use these on my iPad, iPhone, mac, PC, android tablet, XP, Vista, Unix or what ever platform I choose. Dead easy and no ongoing support cost to you.

I know that there will be some piracy, as there is always some tight wad who won't pay for the rules, but I would imagine most gamers, especially competition players, would pay for them. Let's face it, one 15mm army is worth more than the rules.

Please don't go purely digital, it will turn players away.

Now, who do I give my cash to?

Slim

vexillia

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by vexillia » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:29 pm

In the light of some of the debate here this article should be of interest:
Bring Back the Magic :: Osprey, a UK-based publishing company, are selling their military history books DRM-free. This move to go against the grain of the publishing industry is explained by Rebecca Smart, CEO of the Osprey Group, in an informative and exciting article for the zine.
Best quote:
But the bigger reason for our no-DRM philosophy is that our core business model is based upon repeat sales to loyal customers. When you publish for an enthusiast, niche market, the relationship between author, publisher and reader becomes symbiotic. The publisher creates and evolves the brand as a platform, providing an attractive home for the author, who in turn promotes the brand and his or her fellow authors as part of the ‘gang’. The reader knows what to expect from the brand and from the authors, and also wants to be part of the gang. Not surprisingly, in a relationship like this, copyright becomes self-policing – we have evidence of readers scolding those who point others to a source of pirated content. Additionally, the lack of DRM shows customers that we trust them, and this in itself increases their loyalty to the brand and reduces the likelihood of piracy.
Full article - http://bit.ly/NrTQmk
Last edited by vexillia on Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by spike » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:31 pm

Ian M

I am concerned that there seems to a lack of flexibility in the plan, why does it have to be this "Digital Managed" solution or nothing?

Surely its easier to have a PDF, all the tablets and computers can read PDF's so it only has to be published in one format, not many to meet the expectations of Apple, Google and anyone else with a proprietory e-reader file.

I know paper is passe, given your statement that all the bookshops are going bump, (not true of course Amazon still far more printed books than ebooks,) but people like something that they can annotate and note on. PDF's can be printed and if you are really concerned with piracy headers and footers could have the purchacers name copied into them- like the playtest versions did.

end of my 2p's worth

Spike

P.S. will people stop pasting in copies of the changes document- I have seen atleast 2 which is 1 too many!
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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Jhykronos » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:18 pm

philqw78 wrote:
Jhykronos wrote:If their app were printable, the game-store friendliness issue would be resolved... they simply could put it on a CD bundled with a loosleaf printed hardcopy of the latest version.
It would still look like pooh, they have split with Osprey so aren't going to be getting the nice artwork.
Quite frankly, the "nice artwork" does nothing for this gamer... I can get the same pictures in other Osprey material. Replace it with more photos of miniatures, if you must have eye candy.

- JDF

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Polkovnik » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:49 pm

spike wrote:Ian M

I am concerned that there seems to a lack of flexibility in the plan, why does it have to be this "Digital Managed" solution or nothing?

Surely its easier to have a PDF, all the tablets and computers can read PDF's so it only has to be published in one format, not many to meet the expectations of Apple, Google and anyone else with a proprietory e-reader file.
Presumably it's because they don't trust us and are worried about piracy. They should take a leaf out of Osprey's book and look at their comments about trusting their customers in the article quoted above.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Jhykronos » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:03 am

Polkovnik wrote:Presumably it's because they don't trust us and are worried about piracy. They should take a leaf out of Osprey's book and look at their comments about trusting their customers in the article quoted above.
The idea that it's all about IP protection is speculation... Slitherine's stated reason for going with this is that it allows for content updates across the whole line of rules and army lists without the usual hassle of publishing delays, or having the issue of two players having different versions of the rules, etc. You can't get this in a static PDF.

I agree they dropped the ball in selecting a reader app without hard copy capabilty, though. Fortunately, I haven't heard anyone from Slitherine saying that they DON'T intend to add such capability... here's hoping they get it straightened out.

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