Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

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gregernest
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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by gregernest » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:22 am

Please, please keep paper copies as an option.

I have no interest in adding a computer or reading device to my miniatures gaming.

Thank you,
-Greg E.

Polkovnik
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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Polkovnik » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:26 am

Jhykronos wrote:
Polkovnik wrote:Presumably it's because they don't trust us and are worried about piracy. They should take a leaf out of Osprey's book and look at their comments about trusting their customers in the article quoted above.
The idea that it's all about IP protection is speculation... .
What other reason would there be for issuing the rules in a format that cannot be printed ?

ravenflight
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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by ravenflight » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:14 am

I notice that in the days since the announcement has been made that not much has been said by Slitherine.

I hope this means that they are taking on board the rather humongous negative feedback and thinking again.

I was thinking last night that even if I were given an iPad with the rules on them, I would refuse to play. I don't want to be supportive in any way what-so-ever of a rule's system that only allow people who choose to use i-devices to play. It seems elitist to me.

I'm only one squeaky wheel, so they may say 'shove it up your arse', which is fine. I'm just voicing my opinion and will vote with my feet if the rules keep going the way it seems.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by batesmotel » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:24 pm

Polkovnik wrote:
Jhykronos wrote:
Polkovnik wrote:Presumably it's because they don't trust us and are worried about piracy. They should take a leaf out of Osprey's book and look at their comments about trusting their customers in the article quoted above.
The idea that it's all about IP protection is speculation... .
What other reason would there be for issuing the rules in a format that cannot be printed ?
Just as a guess, this is just a current limitation of the Abannan reader app. I suspect that Slitherine chose Abannan on other grounds such as cost or for being willing to work with as small a market as FoG V2.0 is likely to represent even if it is wildly successful rather than whether the rules could be printed or not. Similarly I doubt the restrictions on the list of platforms that Abannan currently supports was a primary reason for choosing Abannan although it might have represented something like a minimum of what Slitherine thought they wanted.

Chris
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vexillia

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by vexillia » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:16 pm

Why the death of DRM would be good news for readers, writers and publishers - http://ow.ly/ckics
More on DRM and ebooks - http://bit.ly/Ok49sR

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Jilu » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:21 pm

Well anyway:
this decission of Slitherine is simply killing their own product...
the tabletop games allowed Slitherine to get a customerbase for their Computergames and i guess that now they have that base the tabletop gamers are just a nuisance and has nothing to do anymore with their core business.
They should spin it of their company and let a tabletop company devlop and publish it . just not GW.... :|

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Fenton » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:30 pm

Jilu wrote:Well anyway:
this decission of Slitherine is simply killing their own product...

Maybe thats the idea?

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Niceas » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:02 pm

Fenton wrote:
Jilu wrote:Well anyway:
this decission of Slitherine is simply killing their own product...

Maybe thats the idea?

If it is, there a lot of easier ways of doing it.

On the face of it, having no printable option is a poor idea.
Robert Sulentic

The only constant in the Universe is change. The wise adapt.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by KillingZoe » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:01 pm

tldr, anymay, here is my opinion:

I do not own any computer that is able to run the applet needed for FoG 2.0. I thereby figure you just don't want me to by FoG 2.0, and so I will not do. It sounds to me like a silly idea anyway using a software distribution channel for a typical print product. I want to have a printed version of the rules on the gaming board, and no computer. Winning new players might be harder for the same reasons. Furthermore, I think even having regulary updates of the rules every half a year or so makes things even worse. Remember, it is a game played by humans who have to read, understand and learn the rules. This only works with stable rules, not to speek of changes in the army lists.

Overall: If the new rules are realy published this way, I will stick to FoG 1. Since I am running two of the regular german FoG tournaments, these will be effected too, as long as I can find enough players to keep running.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by thefloppy1 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:32 am

Been waiting before I post. So here is my take.

I work in IT, I see only really young, or really geeky with Mobile devices like Ipad's etc. While I do own a PC, there is no way I will drag it down to a club for a game of FoG or any Game, the sucker has is a desktop, and I see in the industry still a greater percentage of PC Desktops purchased than laptops.

I personally don't own an Ipad, and I know only 2 people in my club of 50+ that do own one or a mobile device. So that will pretty much kill off FoG Ancients as a set of rules, and I doubt we will run any more comps for it either.
Ancients are not a main stream game, and when I say main stream, I mean, it is a Popular game, like anything GW, or PP even FoW. So for GW to go down the path of ipad, where every kid now has one, cause the kid next to him has one so they must get one, and the target audience is less than 18 then digital content is perfect. But once your target Audience starts to get a bit older, and is starting to need eye ware, looking at a screen all day to read a set of rules is like cutting your self.
Not to mention mature peoples hand sizes are alot bigger, so making small buttons work as one intends on a mobile device may not work as one intends (ever seen somebody with big hands throw thier blackberry this is why). Once read how ever the media device is much better for find stuff quickly, but then we still have to have one to be able to do this.

If I were producing these rules, I would offer both, then as the % of digital sales goes up, start to back off the physical sales, I can't see a hard change over befitting the consumers, and cost of production may well end up costing alot more for a lot longer of you loose sales.

I do believe there is a market for both still, and that is the way it should be targeted. By all means charge a premium for the printed product, people will still pay it. If not, then I think in my area at least we will see a sharp decline in FoG Ancients played as a game, or in any comps.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by atatnet » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:50 pm

I own 3 iPads: 1 iPad1 and two iPad3s. I have some wargames rules on the iPad in pdf format. It's really a hassle virtually flipping the pages trying to look for certain rules. Even the iPad3 is slow. This deters from the enjoyment playing the game.

Furthermore, my physical copies of FoG Ancients and FoG Napoleonic have copious notes written in the pages, both for self-reference and for rules clarification. With the electronic versions of rules, I would not be able to do this. Lets face it, the FoG series of rules are not the best written and organised rules. I find them one of the worst. Hence the need to write notes in the pages.

I also own many Kindle, Borders and pdf ebooks, and I love them. However, these are novels and non-fiction books and I don't need to quickly flip the pages to find a relevant point. With rulebooks, I need to do this. Ebooks may be the future, but not erulebooks.

I don't want to see any of the FoG series fail. Do reconsider your proposal for electronic-only format of the rules. At least, give us a choice.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by atatnet » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:51 pm

I own 3 iPads: 1 iPad1 and two iPad3s. I have some wargames rules on the iPad in pdf format. It's really a hassle virtually flipping the pages trying to look for certain rules. Even the iPad3 is slow. This deters from the enjoyment playing the game.

Furthermore, my physical copies of FoG Ancients and FoG Napoleonic have copious notes written in the pages, both for self-reference and for rules clarification. With the electronic versions of rules, I would not be able to do this. Lets face it, the FoG series of rules are not the best written and organised rules. I find them one of the worst. Hence the need to write notes in the pages.

I also own many Kindle, Borders and pdf ebooks, and I love them. However, these are novels and non-fiction books and I don't need to quickly flip the pages to find a relevant point. With rulebooks, I need to do this. Ebooks may be the future, but not erulebooks.

I don't want to see any of the FoG series fail. Do reconsider your proposal for electronic-only format of the rules. At least, give us a choice.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by ValentinianVictor » Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:20 pm

I am sure that when it was first discussed around a table that this idea of an electronic versions of the rules must have sounded like a fantastic idea. A fully portable ruleset that can be quickly updated and no printing costs involved.
However...
What those who thought up this idea appear to have missed is that wargamers love their paper copy rulesets. They love to pore over the rules, thumbing through the army lists until the wee hours of the morning. They like making notes and highlighting important sections of the rules. It's not going to be anywhere near the same thumbing through your small screen smartphone trying to find the relevant section of the rules, and certainly no incentive to stay up late at night reading them.

Nice idea but an epic fail...

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Jilu » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:07 pm

ohhone more thing, when i travel to play competitions, i do not want to connect to the "world out there", i want to be amongst my friends.
i do not want to have to watch out for my electronic devices because i am scared someone would steal them, on the train, public transport comuting to work.
and a book inpaper does not need a powersource
jmsibiril wrote:Be sure FOG is dead in France if the V2 is not on a paper rulebook or writable version...

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by atatnet » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:51 am

Hey, how about this idea to achieve your digital dreams, Slitherine:

Do not waste money bringing out FoG Ancients 2.0 in any form.
Let FoG Ancients 1.0 die.
Make only FoG Ancients Digital available.
Increase the price or put a subscription - only scheme up.
Organise online tourneys.

This way, we don't need to travel anywhere to participate in tourneys. Saves us money. We can do it in our own homes. We don't risk losing any digital devices in a public place. We don't need to make notes or clarifications to rules because it's all done by the program. Heck, there is no need to even read any rules-just play FoG Digital several times and you will get the idea. Theres no need to paint miniatures. There is no need to store miniatures-they are all virtual. We don't even need to think on how to position our troops because the hexes solve that problem for you. We don't need face-to-face interaction. Just do everything on your screen on the comfort of your study or living room, or even in the garden. How about this for a catch-all tagline:

"FoG Digital: Allows you to spend more time with your loved ones, while playing FoG Ancients. A revolution."

However, please do a business study on the pros and cons of the above business proposal before deciding anything.

By all means, do a sales projection, consider and analyse your competitors, calculate your costs, including opportunity costs of lost sales, etc. Ask your customers for opinions e.g like in a forum on the internet. Also check out the other forums, like The Miniatures Page for further opinions. Your customers (remember them?) might not want to buy that product.

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Jilu » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:08 am

well bad market research i guess, and well yes most people working in the tech world seem to forget there are still people around who have no iphone, pads etc...

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by Strategos69 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:26 am

Jilu wrote:well bad market research i guess, and well yes most people working in the tech world seem to forget there are still people around who have no iphone, pads etc...
Indeed this is one of the cases where the market research was easy, just asking people, who will do it for free in your own forum. Even the players have promoted the poll themselves: right now it seems that they can lose around 85% of their actual customers.

ravenflight
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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by ravenflight » Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:00 pm

Jilu wrote:well bad market research i guess.
What market research?

Who did they ask?

I should do ANOTHER poll.

"Were you asked whether you would support an app only version?"

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by joeymiller » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:08 pm

This all reminds me of when Coca Cola introduced "New Coke"....
Turned out badly for that product, but Coca Cola did learn...
As a long time minature player I want a set of rules that is playable no matter where you go...
That is what we currently have...
To introduce a verison that is very limited in the ability of many to view it; is in my view folly....
But many products have died because no one realized the unitended consequences of the action taken...
I hope FoG Ancients can adapt to the new age, not go extinct..

"when the eagles go silent, the parrots will jabber"
Winston Churchill

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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Post by atatnet » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:24 pm

Look at the bright side of things: if FoG Ancients 2.0 is produced in non-printable digital format, all FoGA 1.0 rulebooks might be collectors items in, say, about 100 years time.
Last edited by atatnet on Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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