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Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:31 am
by nigelemsen
I would still want to be able to have a traditional book. Digital is ok,, but are they expecting people to squint at their smartphones when discussing a point with your opponent... Or does every wargamer own a tablet?

Hard copy print doesn't suffer from a flat battery. :)

To have an electronic version could be handy , but you can't beat browsing a good old fashion book.

As a software/web developer I am normally pro digital, but I think this move would be a bad UX experience.... Espicailly as you would have to install 3rd party software as well.

Digital as another medium not the only medium

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:36 am
by urbanbunny1
"Most expensive set of wargaming rules"

A certain other UK based war-games company wins that one I think. They have just released the latest version of their flagship set of rules and the cost is £75!

So, FoGAM rules for £25, bargin.

Slim

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:44 am
by davidandlynda
I would happily have paid for a new copy of the rules,even 2(don,t forget Lynda plays as well)whatever the price and I suspect most wargamers would have .In fact I was looking forward to it.
I'd even pay for a pdf of the ammendments ,I think I can cope with that,just don't make me try and comprehend apps ,Ipods tablets ????????
David

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:37 am
by johno
If there was a digital version and a Print on Demand service, I would invest in both.

The printed version to use at the table, and the digital version to use in the pub afterwards, discussing the game.

With a digital only approach, I am not inclined to buy the new version at all.

I think Slitherine are right about the future of wargames rules (and similar niche products) being digital. I just think they have jumped too far, too soon. If they had opted for a halfway house approach (a print on demand service would be enough) I'm sure the bulk of us would find it much more acceptable now.

Then the next time they release something (updated lists, or another edition), we'll be much more likely to accept it - not least because the market will have moved on, and the whole digital publication concept will be more widespread.

johno

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:38 am
by Strategos69
In fact this discusion reminded me of a video I watched a while ago about the release of a new technological device :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhcPX1wVp38

As others have said, I also want to buy a book, even if I don't play the game often or at all. I bought "Hail Caesar", "Napoleon" from Foundry, "Flames of War", "Lost Battles" and I am quite happy with the purchases even if I will not be playing (DBMM was my last one disappointing: I won't buy any more black and white poorly presented rule systems). What I demanded from V2 was a substantial change in the book (not the rules, actually), with new diagrams, clarifications, new pictures, some new illustrations and a few add-ons in the wargaming part, which right now is quite poor. Even a couple of scenarios instead of the example of armies, which are totally innecessary in V1.

What I have a hard time to see is why a book on demand would not be profitable (or at least cost effcient). I think that all the people that posted in this 9 pages wanted to buy a book. The publishers can open this on demand system and set a number which could be profitable. Then it is up tp players to get that number of reserved copies so that they can have the book they want. You can even release the V2 right now as an application, have it working for a year until the print is ready and then decide to publish on paper with the last corrections (which there will be). There are options and that way you can set the problem in the other side. If there are not enough reservations you can come back here and tell the players: See? It was not profitable.

In the other hand, I think that army lists are better on online forms than on paper, as experience has shown. They would be good if they were other than lists, as for example army books in Warhammer or Flames of War. That encourage new players to buy them. But right now It is quite hard to convince a new player to get to buy one of those books when they only need one page (and they won't need any other really because they own and will own only one army). Maybe, instead of whole army books you can sell army list applications and thus you buy Early Imperial Roman for a very cheap price 0,5€.

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:51 am
by Caliph
I've only had a quick look but I quite like the V2 changes, the ones that have registered with me so far anyway. When I'm in the garden having a fag I'll put my glasses on have another look at them, I hate reading stuff on the computer.

I think digital versions of the rules and lists is a great idea. However, though I do not agree with all the comments, I like to have the rulebook with me when I play so as far as I am concerned I will have to be able to print them. No print, no play V2.

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:30 am
by stecal
Strategos69 wrote:In the other hand, I think that army lists are better on online forms than on paper, as experience has shown. They would be good if they were other than lists, as for example army books in Warhammer or Flames of War. That encourage new players to buy them. But right now It is quite hard to convince a new player to get to buy one of those books when they only need one page (and they won't need any other really because they own and will own only one army). Maybe, instead of whole army books you can sell army list applications and thus you buy Early Imperial Roman for a very cheap price 0,5€.
Something like what easy army does for FOW. You subscribe to an army list & can create armylists online, save them, print out, etc. http://www.easyarmy.com/

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:47 pm
by ravenflight
pcelella wrote:Ian - if your format allows players to print their own copy out, I think that 90% of the concerns here are resolved. If that is not going to be possible, I think you have a guaranteed loser on your hands. And I say that as an iPad owner who is otherwise looking forward to having the game in digital format.

Peter C

What he said.

I don't own an iPad, but it's something I can imagine having eventually (as I can see that printed media is on the way out) but I do NOT want to see my older fellow wargamers (some who don't even own a mobile phone) unable to access the rules. If you can't print them out then you've alienated people who have kept the hobby going for the last 50 years.

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:55 pm
by ravenflight
philqw78 wrote:At least you have p!55ed everyone off at the same time as Battlefront so there will be lots of people looking for something new to play.
I've had half a Finish army for Flames of War for a number of months now...

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:04 pm
by ravenflight
urbanbunny1 wrote:When I get a new set of rules, I write lots of tips and tricks in the rules to remind myself of things that I need to know, or clarify in the way I understand.
No you don't Slim. You completely re-write the rule in crayon and try to convince people that this is how the rule is written... I know... I've played you at CanCon :).

(JK)

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:10 pm
by ravenflight
zoltan wrote:
IainMcNeil wrote:Pricing is going to be around Tier 15 and Tier 10 for the main rules and books. A tier is around 65p or $1
Are you saying e-pricing is going to be around $US15 for the rules and $US10 per army list book? So someone like me who has the complete set of paper will have to repurchase everything digitally if I want a complete up to date set, even if the e-version of books only contains a few changed sentences regarding selected armies?
That's not completely unusual though. I mean, everyone had to completely re-buy the rule books for the DBM various incarnations. Lists were different, sure, but I've found that once you kinda/sorta know what you're doing with your previous lists you can get by with them and just peek at a friend who has the up-to-date version.

I'm not really complaining about having to pay for new updated rules, I'm complaining about not being able to print them out at the very least.

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:04 pm
by Jilu
ok why not:

sell pdf versions with a code, all players receive a unique code.
to be in the ELO rankings it is that code that is used

the pdf versions would be linked to one player forbidding for players using rules sets belonging to other players.

and realy would a lot of copies be made???

we are all adults and except for a few rogues i think we would all be happy to buy the rules

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:41 pm
by madaxeman
Strategos69 wrote:What I have a hard time to see is why a book on demand would not be profitable (or at least cost effcient).
Based only on guesswork, unfounded assumptions and a bit of common sense, one might hazard a guess that Slitherine own the intellectual property of the rules (not least because they developed it, and they are also using the same IP in FoG:PC) and that Osprey "own" the artwork (because most of it is theirs!) & current layout/design (because that's kind of the stuff publishers do). Unlike most wargame rules producers, Osprey are also "proper" publisher, and a key part of their overall proposition is the graphic plates which means they almost certainly want to have pretty high overall production values in anything they put their name to.

If some or all of these guesses are correct, that might make using a 3rd party print on demand service rather tricky, irrespective of profitability ...

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:54 pm
by NicktheLemming
My wife works for one of the big four international publishing houses, and laughed when I told her about this. She works in the department which collects info on what's selling and what isn't, and despite the doom and gloom, printed books are still selling well. In fact, some e-books are not selling at all well (cookery books, while they've been lauded as the best big thing for ipads etc, don't sell at all well as e-books, because no-one wants to have to put their ipad in a place where it's likely to get splashed with food etc). She's also expressed her surprise at the newest tech for print on demand - looking at a traditionally printed book and one done by POD, it's hard to tell the difference if you go for the decent paper etc. Full colour, glossy paper, etc, and looks great, for a fraction of the price since there's little storage or minimum print amounts needed.

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:01 pm
by Torquemada
If this is the future of fog and people dont like what they see then what other options are there for wargaming ancients?.

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:11 pm
by pcelella
Torquemada wrote:If this is the future of fog and people dont like what they see then what other options are there for wargaming ancients?.
I'm seriously considering returning to Warrior for my 15mm and 25mm Ancients gaming. Hail Caesar also makes a great game in 25mm, and can be used to easily have opposing armies where one is WAB-based and the other based for WRG. Hail Caesar can also be used in 15mm nicely with reduced distances, but I think gamers have to firstly agree on some basic conventions to use before it is suitable for competition gaming.

Peter C
Sword and Sandal Gaming Blog
http://swordandsandalgaming.blogspot.com/

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:07 pm
by Strategos69
madaxeman wrote:
Strategos69 wrote:What I have a hard time to see is why a book on demand would not be profitable (or at least cost effcient).
Based only on guesswork, unfounded assumptions and a bit of common sense, one might hazard a guess that Slitherine own the intellectual property of the rules (not least because they developed it, and they are also using the same IP in FoG:PC) and that Osprey "own" the artwork (because most of it is theirs!) & current layout/design (because that's kind of the stuff publishers do). Unlike most wargame rules producers, Osprey are also "proper" publisher, and a key part of their overall proposition is the graphic plates which means they almost certainly want to have pretty high overall production values in anything they put their name to.

If some or all of these guesses are correct, that might make using a 3rd party print on demand service rather tricky, irrespective of profitability ...
I think that your guesses are probably right. Certainly the artwork seems Osprey's 100%.

I was more thinking about collecting demands and have them printed by Osprey in one year whereas the game keeps its online life. Anyway, what is clear is that this is the end of the game as we knew it. Most of the customers that have expressed their views here want to buy a book, something they can touch. That is not what they are offered. When the offer does not meet the expectations of the demand, there is no product. Even the solution of printed pages is not really satisfactory. It is more cost effcient to go to a professional printer when you have enough demand. Thus, it is just a matter of knowing the exact demand you have.

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:31 pm
by hazelbark
Torquemada wrote:If this is the future of fog and people dont like what they see then what other options are there for wargaming ancients?.
Well there are several options.
1) Look at the renaissance era. When DBR faded in my area i stopped playing and the armies moved to the back. I got them out for FOG R. Same is true for Napoleonics I now have out them because FOG N. My SYW are currently in the back.
2) Most gamers are exclusive to one period. I know mutliple FOG ancients groups that play a different period every month, meet twice a month so they play 24 minuate games a year and abou 4-8 are ancients. They will just move.
3) Plenty of period rules out there for Roman era. Dark age era, etc.
4) Some will stick with FOG AM 1. People still play WRG 6th and 7th not event he warrior version. People still play DBA and DBM.

I hope FOG 2 is viable....

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:36 pm
by Polkovnik
Torquemada wrote:If this is the future of fog and people dont like what they see then what other options are there for wargaming ancients?.
Seeing as we seem to be allowed to discuss other rulesets on here I may as well put in a plug for my own rules. They are free, available as a pdf to download from the Yahoo group, and aim to give similar outcomes to FOG but in less time and with much less fiddly stuff.

This is the Yahoo group :
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/famb_wargames/

And here's a post on TMP about them :
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=273862

Re: Field of Glory goes 2.0 !

Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:39 pm
by philqw78
dave_r wrote:
Warlord wrote: wargamers today won't stand for that sort of publishing again.
I think they would stand for any type of publishing at the moment