Post impact conforming question

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rayfredjohn
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Post impact conforming question

Post by rayfredjohn » Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:59 pm

Had a game against Mad Dog Madigan today and the following situation came up.

IMPACT PHASE

My BG of 6 knights hit his BG of 4 cav. The knights had a frontage of 4 and the knights stepped forward at impact.

The knight on the right end of the line stepped forward and hit the second battle group of cav that were positioned to the right. Three knights

fought in impact against left BG , and 1 against right BG

What happens in melee? See photo 2 below for our solution


Image

MELEE PHASE

The knights conformed to one battle group because it couldn't conform to two and stay together.

Neither of us were happy that we had got this right!!

Image


We wanted to keep the game moving so decided to consult the forum after the game.

Oh, and yes that is a second BG of knights lurking. The Knights stove in his right flank and it was ugly from there on in.


Ray

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Post by andy63 » Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:09 pm

Hi rayfredjohn
I think you only fight the first BG of Cav with 2 elements then you conform as you did.
ANDY.

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Post by hammy » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:31 pm

Hi Ray,

All references right and left are as looking at the picture not from the perspective of the troops

Looking at the picture it isn't clear if the right hand kinght has hit both BGs of cavalry or just one. If it has actually hit both then it would IMO be up to the owner of the knights to decide which BG that knight base fights.

If the knight on the right fights the cavalry on the right then there would be a 2 dice vs 2 dice fight there. The remaining knights would fight the cavalry on the left. The way the bases are possitioned only one base of cavalry has been contacted although by two bases of knights so that would result in another 2 dice vs 2 dice combat. The knights would not be able to conform in this possition so would have to stay as they were. The cavalry would have to conform to the knights once it gets round to the cavalry's turn.

If the knight on the right fights the cavalry on the left then there would be a 4 dice on 4 dice impact and the knights would conform to the cavalry on the left as per your picture.

Hope that makes sense as it is a bit of a complex situation.

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Post by neilhammond » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:02 pm

I think that 3 bases each fight at impact (assuming the left hand knight element was in contact with both cav bases). However, I think the Kn can chose to only fight the left hand cav group to make it 2 bases each fighting. In the manoeuver phase I don't think you line up. The knights stay as is and fight 2 BGs.

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Post by rayfredjohn » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:08 pm

Hammy
Looking at the picture it isn't clear if the right hand kinght has hit both BGs of cavalry or just one.
Ray:

the Knight on the right end, as you look at it, stepped forward and hit the second BG of cav and only the second. The knight BG was therefore fighting two BG's of cav at impact.
OK, on that basis there would be a 2 dice ve 2 dice combat against the second cavalry and the same against the first as only one base of the first (left hand) cavalry has been contacted.

The melee gets rather complex. The second cavalry can fight with 4 dice against 2 dice for the knights (only one base fighting them) and the first cavalry would I suspect get 4 dice against 6 from the knights as the knights will be able to match their frontage and get an overlap.

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Post by neilhammond » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:16 pm

rayfredjohn wrote: the Knight on the right end, as you look at it, stepped forward and hit the second BG of cav and only the second. The knight BG was therefore fighting two BG's of cav at impact.

Ray
In which case there is one base vs one base against each cav BG at impact.

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Post by marshalney2000 » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:17 pm

While difficult to tell from the photo I would have thought that the first knight unit should should fight only the one cavalry unit with 4 dice each. Not sure the other knight unit should conform at all as it would not then be fighting in the impact. Although it could line up in the subsequent move phase as an overlap.
When you say it stove in the flank I presume you mean as an overlap as it cannot hit the flank from the position it is in.
John

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Post by sagji » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:38 am

Assuming your end knight hit only the right cavalry, or it hit both and you choose to fight against the right.
Impact - you only fight with bases contacted, and both sides fight with the same number of bases.
So you get 2 fights of 1 base (2 dice) v 1 base (2 dice).

Movement - you can't conform.
However you can feed another knight into the combat on the right.
Also I don't think the right column of the left cavalry can fight - they aren't in contact, and you can only be overlaped at the end of your line - this means they can expand to match your existing overlap on the left.

Melee - assuming both moves above happen you will get 2 2 bases (4 dice) vs 2 bases (4 dice).
If neither happens you will get a 2 vs 1 on the left and a 1 vs 2 on the right.

Enemy movement - they will conform to you. Assuming the expansion above this will leave a 1 base gap between the 2 cavalry BGs. As there is an overlap (on the right) against you you can expand to match it, you can't expand to create a new overlap on the left as it is an emeny turn.
This will give you a 3vs2 and a 2vs2 combat with you choosing which is which.

{P.S.}
If you choose to fight the one on the left then it goes as you thought.

{P.P.S.}
This is a nice example - possibly it should be added to the website as a worked example.

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Post by hammy » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:49 am

Having looked again I am now confident that with the information that the right hand knight hit the right hand cavalry my earlier post is right apart from Sagii comment that the knights can expand against the right hand cavalry. I am 95% sure that the left hand cavalry can fight with both files as their left hand file is in contact with two knights. If you label the knights ABCD along the line and the cavalry 1234 then:

Knight D fights cavalry 3 at impact and in melee
Knight C can fight cavalry 1 at impact but would fight cavalry 2 in melee as bases fight as if they were lined up.
Knight B can fight cavalty 1 at impact and either B or C will do so but fights cavalry 1 in melee
Knight A is an overlap

The knights in their movement phase can expand another base on their left (ther right of the screen) to fight cavalry 4

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Post by bddbrown » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:31 am

I think it has been clearly spelled out but I cannot be sure, so for my own clarity I believe the following happens:

In the impact phase 3 bases of knights are in contact with 3 bases of cavalry. Therefore there are 6 dice involved at impact for each side. As the righthandmost knight base is in contact with both BGs of cavalry the owning player chooses which BG cavalry to apply those dice to. Therefore there are two options available to the owning player of the Kn base (I believe Ray as it happens):
1. 6 dice against the lefthandmost cavalry BG or,
2. 4 dice against the lefthandmost cavalry BG and 2 dice against the righthandmost cavalry BG.

In the maneouvre phase the knights cannot conform to the cavalry and get into a normal (legal) formation and so stay where they are. The Kn player may expand one of the 2 spare elements of Kn from the rear rank (as they do not contribute dice or PoA to the combat) on the right to fight the righthandmost cavalry BG. The rules however are not clear exactly where this element goes in this situation, but it is obvious enough. The Cv player may not expand at all, even though a space is available on the left for the lefthandmost cavalry Bg because all of the elements are contributing dice to the combat already.

If the Kn player expands (there is no obvious reason not to) then going from left to right, 1 overlap plus 2 more bases of Kn fight the lefthandmost cavalry BG, the 4th Kn base is technically not in front edge contact and is therefore counting as an overlap as such the owning player chooses which BG to contribute the dice to and the expanded 5th Kn base must fight the righthandmost cavalry BG. So there are two choices are:
1. 6 dice for the Kn versus 4 dice for the lefthandmost cavalry BG and 4 dice for the Kn versus 4 dice for the righthandmost cavalry BG or,
1. 8 dice for the Kn versus 4 dice for the lefthandmost cavalry BG and 2 dice for the Kn versus 4 dice for the righthandmost cavalry BG.

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Post by Keith » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:41 am

I would have just wheeled the Knights slightly so that they clearly didn't hit both units and cause a lot of rules confusion :)

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Post by rayfredjohn » Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:58 am

But I wanted to hit both BG's of Cav and to keep them there for my next BG of knights seen lurking at top of picture. Any way it was devastating to my opponent in the way we resolved it. I just felt we hadn't worked it through exactly.

The big lesson is that if my knights coluldn't conform to both BG's then they just stsy where they are and the opponent conforms in his manoever phase.

I hope I understsnd this correctly???


thanks guys.


see you at the Challenge


Ray

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Post by hammy » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:24 am

rayfredjohn wrote:But I wanted to hit both BG's of Cav and to keep them there for my next BG of knights seen lurking at top of picture. Any way it was devastating to my opponent in the way we resolved it. I just felt we hadn't worked it through exactly.

The big lesson is that if my knights coluldn't conform to both BG's then they just stsy where they are and the opponent conforms in his manoever phase.

I hope I understsnd this correctly???
Yup, if you can't conform you don't conform.

I agree with Bruce that IF the right hand knight has hit both cavalry BGs then you would get six dice but as Ray said that it only hit the right hand cavalry BG you only get 4 dice, 2 on each BG.

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Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:28 am

hammy wrote:I agree with Bruce that IF the right hand knight has hit both cavalry BGs then you would get six dice but as Ray said that it only hit the right hand cavalry BG you only get 4 dice, 2 on each BG.
It would in fact be a remarkable coincidence (or very carefully engineered) if it hit both BGs with different corners, as it would have to hit both simultaneously.

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Post by Keith » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:28 am

Yeah , no worries , I think you have it right there , if you can't conform you don't.


Another question is
why didn't the Knights on the extreme left of the top picture step forward into contact ?

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Post by rbodleyscott » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:30 am

Keith wrote:why didn't the Knights on the extreme left of the top picture step forward into contact ?
Because the charging rules require troops to step forward if they can hit something.

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Post by Keith » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:37 am

Looks like they could hit here ?
Hard to tell , but if they could make it , they would push forward ?


Image

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Post by terrys » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:40 am

Since it was your wish to hit the RH cav BG, then you would only actually fight 1 base of each cavalry BG at impact.
Therefore you would have 2v2 dice against each Cav BG. (if you hit 2 bases with one, you can only fight one of them & if you hit one base with 2 you can only fight with one)

Bruce & Hammy are correct about the melee phase.
if you were allowed to conform, then you would have lined up against the front of cav bases 1 & 2 with you knight bases B & C, and be allowed to use A as an overlap - therefore 6 dice against 4.
If you were allowed to conform against the RH cavalry group, you would have Knight base D line up against cav base 3.
You could then expand a base to contact cav base 4. (i.e. you can expand a base to the left of the knights.) this would give you 4 dice against 4.
The cav would then conform to you in their own phase to line up exactly as above.
(note that this would stop your other BG of knights from joining the melee except as an overlap (i.e. no impact) unless you managed to get far enough for a legal flank charge.

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Post by sagji » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:19 pm

Keith wrote: Another question is
why didn't the Knights on the extreme left of the top picture step forward into contact ?
A very good question. From the look of it they must contact the rear cavalry which would mean each side gets an extra base (2 dice) in the impact combat.

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Post by hammy » Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:19 pm

Keith wrote:Looks like they could hit here ?
Hard to tell , but if they could make it , they would push forward ?


Image
Good spot Keith, if that distance is less than 2 MU then they really should have stepped forwards there which would make the impact 4 dice each way on the left hand cavalry and 2 dice each way on the right.

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