Skirmisher formation and attachments

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Strategiser
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Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by Strategiser »

Dear Commanders,

I have just a few clarifying questions. Would be grateful if you could help me out.

1. Could you please clarify how you display/place the skirmisher formation with the minis and bases as per the rules?

2. Are the skirmisher attachments placed (as stated in the rulebook, page 88) or REplaced instead of an existing base?

3. Also, on a different topic: page 96 shows area features sizes in MUs (as per the illustration), however, the text on the same page (under the heading "Area Features") states them in inches. I suppose the correct one is in MU (to reflect the different mini sizes). Correct?

Thanks in advance!
Blathergut
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by Blathergut »

1. We use two ways:

-a light infantry unit in skirmish would have 4 bases of figures, 3 figures per base (two of those bases having replaced bases with 8 figures each)
or
-we have small markers (disordered/wavering/broken)(halted/spent/skirmish) to indicate

2. We just add a small base (one base width but only a half base depth) to the front of the unit with a couple skirmish figures on it...same for artillery attachments

3. No clue. I don't know if this has been clarified. All my terrain is made for the inches qualifications. If it was made to MU, pieces would be gigantic.
MDH
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by MDH »

There is no fixed rule on the placing of skirmisher attachments but as you replace a base in a unit with an officer and artillery attachment ( for infantry or cavalry) it is consistent to replace an infantry base with a skirmish attachment. But you can place a skirmish attachment in front if you wish, and maybe even represent it with two bases ( for a small unit the standard width but half the depth . So long as it is clear to both players what is what and which units have which attachments.


The main practical factor is space taken up . if they are placed to the front (or side or rear) of a unit that then retains all its bases they can get in the way of your movements and the working out of passages of lines, outcome moves etc - so you have to keep removing or moving them and then putting them back .

This is particularly true if you have two units at close range each of which has a skirmish attachment at the front !

For artillery units with an artillery attachment another full sized artillery base is added and the unit then takes up the space as if it was a large unit including for pivots and where the centre point is. An officer attachment for an artillery unit ( where permitted in the list ) is placed at the back, not replacing a base.


Re light infantry the convention is ( for a small unit) is two base with 6-8 figures and two with 2-3 for tactical, then four with 2-3 for skirmish order. Again so long as it is clear which order they are in.

One of my regular opponents in 15mm has based his figures so that an infantry base can have a couple of figures to one side of the base in a more open order than the rest ( he can squeeze more than 8 onto a base - using his own figures) and does the same with artillery so he simply swaps a standard infantry base for one of these with the attachment built into the base. They do look super. No way can I do that in 28mm!
deadtorius
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by deadtorius »

The way we do it is as blathergut has described. To be honest when we first got the rules and looked at having to drop a base of figures to replace it with a gun etc, well you spend all that money on the figs, spend all that time painting them we don't want to start dropping bases.

For line Infantry I base 8 figures per base. For light infantry all my units are small so I will put it in terms of small units. Tried large Grenzers once, never again too much of a pain with them, better keeping them small. So for Light Infantry I base 2 bases with 6 figures each and 2 bases with 3 figures each for tactical. When in skirmish mode I replace the two 6 figure bases with 2, 3 figure bases. In the case of the Russians I have not gotten the extra Jager bases yet so use a skirmish counter with them.

For artillery attachment we use a single artillery model and place it out front with the unit. I suggest buying them from Old Glory or RAFM Flint and Feather range as they are both inexpensive and you can buy just 2 guns in a pack no crew figures to toss out or pay for. Its way cheaper than having to buy lots of extra guns with crews as you want all the artillery attachments you can get. Lots of them with the Russians.

Officers we use a single mounted figure on a base 20mm wide by 60 deep. He is placed out front of the unit he is with.

Skirmish attachment is a single base 60mm wide by 20mm deep (officer base turned sideways) with 2 skirmishing figures on it and is placed out front. Keeps them looking different than a light infantry skirmish unit. For my Austrians I was able to make them up with the Victrix Landwehr box. For the Russians I had to use Perry metal Jagers. I dont mind having the six figures marching but the guys out front needed to be in proper skirmish poses. If you are doing Prussians, Perry Plastics you get volunteer jagers which would look good as 3 front figures. Victrix Brits you could probably make them with the infantry, for rifles you would need to buy them as metal. Victrix french has some kneeling figures you can use from the plastic sets for skirmishers and light infantry. You can also buy them in metal if you really want.

Cavalry attachments we just use an unused cavalry base and set it up out front or behind the unit its attached to. With two armies having some kind of unused cavalry is not a problem for me.

All base sizes are given for 28mm figures.
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by Strategiser »

Thank you all for your helpful feedback!
Strategiser
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by Strategiser »

A couple more related questions.

1. Can any Light Cavalry form a Skirmisher formation? Or is this just limited to Irregular Light Cavalry? (The rulebook mentions both ways in different places).

2. Also, I was thinking of representing Light Cavalry in tactical formation by having the front rank being represented by two cavalries per base with the rear rank having full 3 cavalry per base. Once shifted to a Skirmisher formation (subject to my question 1 above), the rear rank is replaced with '2 cavalry per base' bases like the front rank. Although the rulebook does not specify this for cavalry (unless I have missed it somehow!), I think this is a neater way to represent the Light Cavalry akin to the Light Infantry, so that the opposing player(s) can instantly recognise them from a distance. What do you think?

Many thanks in advance!
deadtorius
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by deadtorius »

Irregular light cavalry is always skirmishing. So they can evade a charge, move out of your start area if you lose the initiative, move up to half in any direction other than moving forwards, but don't get the -POA for being shot at. they will also always start with 4 dice in any combat situation.
Irregular cavalry can be in either a tactical formation, 2 or 3 bases up 2 or 3 bases bases back or can be in a single extended line. Either way they are always skirmishing so can evade while in tactical.

Regular light cavalry only can be placed in an extended line. If in this formation is used they are treated like the above Irregular skirmishing cavalry.

I have all my light cavalry mounted 2 figs to a base, partly since its cheaper for buying figures and as a left over from my ancient renaissance armies where light horse was always 2 to a base. My heavy cavalry are all mounted 3 figures to a base. In the case of Cossacks they are always skirmishing so no real need to have different bases for them, the line cavalry can just reform into a single line if they want to skirmish.
pugsville
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by pugsville »

The rules page 19/20

* Evade if light Cavalry in single rank

* Evade if infantry Skirmishers.

nowhere does it say that cavalry skirmishers get to evade. We have been playing irregular light cavalry can evade but this was pointed out to me recently and the rules say they do not,
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by Strategiser »

Thanks. However, one thing I am still not entirely clear about:

Light Cavalry (whether Irregular or not) can either be in tactical formation or skirmisher formation. If using two figs per base for both front and rear ranks (like deadtorius does as per his message above), then doesn't this make the recognition of the given formation more difficult? Don't the rules suggest to use different number of figs per base for front (less) and rear (normal, i.e. more) ranks when the light infantry/cavalry is NOT in skirmisher formation. To represent the change to skirmisher formation, the rear rank bases are then replaced by the bases with fewer figs per base (i.e. to mirror the front ranks).

Is my understanding correct?
pugsville
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by pugsville »

Cavalry there is just column or normal formation and extended line formation. Light cavalry in extended line can evade.

Irregular Light Cavalry in whatever formation and Regular light cavalry in extended line get to move as skirmishers (though only Irregular light cavalry can ove outside deployment zone first two turns as defender)
MDH
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by MDH »

Strategiser wrote:A couple more related questions.

1. Also, I was thinking of representing Light Cavalry in tactical formation by having the front rank being represented by two cavalries per base with the rear rank having full 3 cavalry per base. Once shifted to a Skirmisher formation (subject to my question 1 above), the rear rank is replaced with '2 cavalry per base' bases like the front rank. Although the rulebook does not specify this for cavalry (unless I have missed it somehow!), I think this is a neater way to represent the Light Cavalry akin to the Light Infantry, so that the opposing player(s) can instantly recognise them from a distance. What do you think?
You could do that of course but a light cavalry unit in a single rank of stands is not necessarily skirmishing. In most cases not really but it may be so we just say it can evade- as in avoid contact.

Some nations did have regulations that deployed light cavalry a bit like light infantry units could be, with some squadrons or part squadrons deployed forward and/or slightly to one flank of the main lines of the regiment, acting as screens etc but this was as often in the context or working with infantry - eg in the Prussian army regs from 1812. They are not necessarily , or even likely, to be engaging with their firearms however - that is more likely off the battlefield in picket lines recce etc. Firearms were as much for "force protection" for cavalry as for offensive ops.

If I am honest as one of the writers I don't think FOG(N) - given its Corps approach- is able adequately to model ( as in a simulation) these kinds of small unit tactics. For that you really need cavalry to have the regiments organised by squadrons - so many more figures and in battalions not regiments for infantry ( see notes at the back of the rules in why Regiments) For that you need a Division level game in my view or even Brigade level.

It serves to illustrate that even for a relatively uncomplicated era like this one :) there is no " one rule set to rule them all". FOG(N) is essentially about giving players the chance to model and practice " Grand tactics" - the art of manoeuvring 20-25,000 men as a coherent all arms body. Other Napoleonic rules will have a different design objective( usually, assuming thy have one at all).

I often mull over the idea of going down two levels - to brigade- with say 72/64 figures per Btn and 24/36 per cavalry Regiment and representing regiments deployed by companies and squadrons with the intervals between them on the table but that is a very niche idea :lol:
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by Strategiser »

pugsville wrote:Cavalry there is just column or normal formation and extended line formation. Light cavalry in extended line can evade.

Irregular Light Cavalry in whatever formation and Regular light cavalry in extended line get to move as skirmishers (though only Irregular light cavalry can ove outside deployment zone first two turns as defender)
So are we saying that the cavalry cannot willingly take a skirmisher formation as such, since the Irregular Light Cavalry in whatever formation is considered to be a skirmisher and the same for the Regular Cavalry when in Extended Line?

What confuses me is that page 86 ("Cavalry Unit Organisation"), fourth paragraph states that the Extended Line is most often used by skirmishing light or irregular light cavalry. This sentence assumes that there are light cavalry units in skirmishing formation. Furthermore, page 16 ("Formations") explicitly states "Skirmish" as a formation type, whereby is says that the formation is used by light Infantry and light Cavalry!

Could you please clarify this as I think the above two statements are what cause my confusion for light cavalry skirmisher formations?

Many thanks!
deadtorius
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by deadtorius »

So are we saying that the cavalry cannot willingly take a skirmisher formation as such, since the Irregular Light Cavalry in whatever formation is considered to be a skirmisher and the same for the Regular Cavalry when in Extended Line?
Drilled Light cavalry can be put into an extended line formation and they can then evade like any other skirmishers. This is the only drilled light cavalry skirmish formation. If charged in extended line they may try to stand and take the charge but must pass a CMT to do so. If they go into combat in extended line they will only get 4 dice for combat.
If in tactical they can not evade but must counter charge as normal.

Irregular light cavalry can be in tactical or extended line formation. In either formation it will evade like skirmishers.
They are always considered to be in a skirmish formation so starts with 4 dice in combats instead of the normal 6 vs other mounted or infantry not in square.
Irregular light cavalry can move out past the deployment line in the first 2 turns.
Irregular light cavalry can give rear and flank support.
Irregular light cavalry must test to frontally charge non wavering non irregular light cavalry units. So if you want to frontally charge steady or disordered drilled light or heavy cavalry you have to pass a CMT to do so. Also applies to frontally charging infantry and artillery.

Hope that clears things up for you.
Strategiser
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by Strategiser »

Thank you!

So, effectively:

1. Light Cavalry that is non-Irregular can ONLY be in a Skirmisher formation when taking an Extended Line formation; and

2. Irregular Light Cavalry is always considered to be in a Skirmisher formation whether it is in tactical, extended line, march, etc.

Correct?

Thanks.
KeefM
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by KeefM »

Yes :-) !
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by Strategiser »

Great, thank you! :)
terrys
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Re: Skirmisher formation and attachments

Post by terrys »

1. Light Cavalry that is non-Irregular can ONLY be in a Skirmisher formation when taking an Extended Line formation; and
Not strictly true. There is an amendment that reads
 Page 107: GLOSSARY OF TERMS: RH column - Skirmishers – 3rd bullet point. Add at the end “act and react as if skirmishers during the Assault and Combat phases – They do NOT move as skirmishers during the Movement Phase”.
Note that this means that the defenders non-Irregular Light Cavalry cannot move outside their deployment area during the first 2 moves of a game even if in single rank – if using the initiative rules.
This is to emphasize that they are not skirmishers, but behave as if they are skirmishers during the assault and combat phases only.
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