I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

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Belanos
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I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

Post by Belanos » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:14 pm

I play Huge maps at Marathon pace, and in several games now, the only factions to survive the alien onslaught were me and the ecological faction. I also played them for awhile and I just wasn't being attacked at all. It seems to me that the -50% aggression is just a bit too powerful of a trait. It gives them a huge advantage in the early stage of the game. Then of course there's the fact the other factions just aren't able to survive at those settings. I really think that there needs to be either some reprogramming so that they're more defensive during that period or some bonuses should be applied depending on the game pace so more of them survive the alien hordes. It makes for kind of a boring game if I keep ending up with the same faction to deal with in the end.

boulugre
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Re: I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

Post by boulugre » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:46 pm

Because the alien spawn rate is not affected by the game rate, the marathon game setting is kind of broken right know. Maybe if you play in very low alien setting (I never tried) the AI still get a chance to survive, but high level of alien activity is just broken. Play on huge map doesn't help either, with loads of hives all over the map. Try to play on smaller map for the moment, it should be more playable.

void
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Re: I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

Post by void » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:25 pm

Oh dear, there was a bug that caused the game pace for alien aggression to not be considered against AI factions only. On e.g. Marathon that resulted in aliens attacking the AI twice as fast as the player (and yes, that includes Galeths and Devourers). Hive production was getting modified correctly by the pace though.

Thanks for pointing it out guys, will be fixed asap and go live today.
Lorenz Ruhmann
Proxy Studios

Belanos
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Re: I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

Post by Belanos » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:02 pm

Bonus, thanks. That still doesn't address my first point that the ecological faction might be a bit too powerful with their trait though. I think having the lower aggression set to -25% rather than -50% might be a bit more balanced. I had to get fairly aggressive with them when I played that faction, they didn't bother with me until I started taking out a few Hives. And even then their attacks were rather sporadic. It certainly wasn't a problem fighting them off.

Belanos
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Re: I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

Post by Belanos » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:37 pm

Now this is just silly. I ended up with the green faction again, I still can't remember all the names. As a test I decided not to attack any aliens at all, though I accidentally killed one of them early on. I managed to build 7 cities during the alien assault phase, and not once did any alien attack my cities or even pillage my lands. I had one Seeker I sent out to look around get hit but that was it. Two of the other factions were eliminated and I ended up winning an economic victory before that phase of the game was even complete. The ecological faction is most definitely unbalanced IMO. They're a guaranteed victory and the only real challenge in the game if I'm playing some other faction. It seems the other factions are having a better time of surviving the aliens, but since the game was over for me before that phase was complete, it's kind of hard to tell for sure. It still seems like they could use a bit of help though. I think at the most there should only be one faction that doesn't make it, preferably none. They should end up down but not out of that phase IMO, otherwise there's not much of a challenge in the later game. It will mean just steady expansion on an empty planet.

kidpython
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Re: I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

Post by kidpython » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:52 pm

I agree that the ecological faction is the strongest even without the alien agression advantage. I really enjoy not futzing with pollution! Maybe the per pop food required should be a bit higher because they are fussy about the quality of what they eat. Maybe mining should cost extra money as they have to protect the minefields from their own eco-minded citizens.

Belanos
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Re: I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

Post by Belanos » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:25 pm

You reminded me of another point I noticed about them. I was hanging around outside their territory with a Barracuda ship and I noticed that their Formers were clearing everything to build mines. That makes absolutely no sense when it comes to Savannah/Tundra/Hills. They get the same amount of minerals either way, plus they also get the food from leaving the forests intact. Even grassland hills give them a benefit since it helps reduce their pollution levels. They need to have their own automation routine for their Formers, not the same one that's used for all the other factions. The only mines they should be building are ones on Mountains and on hills that don't have any forests on them. They certainly shouldn't be doing any clear-cutting like they are now.

Belanos
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Re: I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

Post by Belanos » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:02 am

One thing that I've been thinking of regarding the Terran Salvum's bonus. Rather than the -50 alien aggression, I think they should instead start the game with the Xenology tech and accomplishment. That would still give them a good boost in the early game without making them overpowered as they are now. And they should definitely have their own auto-Former routine. That particular bonus is meaningless if all they're going to do is chop down the forest like everyone else, and it means that the player can't use any auto-Formers if they want to get the maximum benefit of that trait. Instead of building mines on hills like the other factions do, they should be planting forests.

ErissN6
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Re: I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

Post by ErissN6 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:24 pm

Belanos wrote: regarding the Terran Salvum's bonus. Rather than the -50 alien aggression, I think they should instead start the game with the Xenology tech and accomplishment. That would still give them a good boost in the early game without making them overpowered as they are now.
But in the end-game they become nothing special as other factions have those techs, so it has to be otherwise than yours.

boulugre
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Re: I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

Post by boulugre » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:18 pm

Belanos wrote:One thing that I've been thinking of regarding the Terran Salvum's bonus. Rather than the -50 alien aggression, I think they should instead start the game with the Xenology tech and accomplishment. That would still give them a good boost in the early game without making them overpowered as they are now. And they should definitely have their own auto-Former routine. That particular bonus is meaningless if all they're going to do is chop down the forest like everyone else, and it means that the player can't use any auto-Formers if they want to get the maximum benefit of that trait. Instead of building mines on hills like the other factions do, they should be planting forests.
Bof bof, the -50 alien aggression is not so powerful (maybe on early game in very aggressive aliens settings on large map but that's about it) but from the late colonial era its doesn't change anything. I think it's fine as it is now.

I often see the AI controlling TS planting a lot of forest on their lands, but it's true they will still build mine on hills which is a little bit of a waste.

Belanos
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Re: I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

Post by Belanos » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:36 am

boulugre wrote: Bof bof, the -50 alien aggression is not so powerful (maybe on early game in very aggressive aliens settings on large map but that's about it) but from the late colonial era its doesn't change anything. I think it's fine as it is now.
If read one of my earlier posts, I think you might feel differently. It was a bit ridiculous that I was able to establish 7 cities and win an Economic victory without once being attacked by an alien. They completely ignored me except for a Seeker unit I had sent out. And I had several game at first where they were the only faction left standing after the onslaught. Though that is better now that Proxy added the game pace fix. I usually get at least 4 factions surviving now, including myself.
I often see the AI controlling TS planting a lot of forest on their lands, but it's true they will still build mine on hills which is a little bit of a waste.
I haven't seen very much of that, if at all. In my games they're clear cutting everything just like all the other factions.It makes that bonus pretty useless if it only applies to the very early game. The only mines they should be building are on Mountains or Hill tiles that have a resource on them.
ERISS wrote: But in the end-game they become nothing special as other factions have those techs, so it has to be otherwise than yours.
They same can be said for the Imperium who gets the Field Training tech and the science faction who gets tech that allows Seekers. Not having to build the Xenology Accomplishment is a good boost to the early game. It means they will be able to focus on other things while everyone else has to take the time to first research the tech then build the Accomplishment. After a Former, I always build it first and it still works out that I barely have time to build a second city before they turn hostile. I need to buy a couple of Troopers in order to survive the initial onslaught. If the Xenology Accomplishment was already built at the start of the game, I could probably have 3 cities up and running, and have researched an extra military tech or two to help in defending myself against them.

BlueTemplar
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Re: I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:53 pm

Why not both start with Xenology, and have a (smaller than currently) - alien agression bonus?

Belanos
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Re: I think the ecological faction needs some tweaking

Post by Belanos » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:48 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:Why not both start with Xenology, and have a (smaller than currently) - alien agression bonus?
I don't think they should have any alien aggression bonus. I just played them again with a -25 bonus, rather than -50, on medium aggression settings and I ended up winning a Military victory after building just 3 cities. While I had a few attacks made against me, they were very minor and easy to fend off.

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