Artillery versus anti-tank guns

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SteveG75
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Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by SteveG75 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:37 pm

So, is there a patch for this coming anytime soon? This is probably one of the most frustrating issues with BA2. When a single Su-76 can destroy an AT gun that has fired once from a heavy fortification (80% cover rating, 4x fortify bonus), something is out of whack. :(

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by pipfromslitherine » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:36 pm

Does it destroy it consistently? Bad luck can happen :) I shall point Iain to your post as he has the most insight into the balance.

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SteveG75
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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by SteveG75 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:42 am

First shot kills for the AI artillery seem to be the norm. Heck, they even do a good job targeting my units that out of LOS of any enemy unit.

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by IainMcNeil » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:27 am

This is a tricky one to get right as its all probability and unless you run the test quite a few times the results can be deceiving. The Su76 is about the same as other artillery so if there is an issue with him its likely to effect all artillery. Is this a direct or indirect shot?

enric
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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by enric » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:28 am

I think the point is that AT, or any other artillery, have only one man crew.
The same fire (hit) on an infantry will have just killed a man, but not the whole unit.

If guns had five men crew, for example, this hit will have killed a man of the crew, and the gun will continue alive and firing (at less accuracy, or only one shot per turn, as one man less in crew.

BA2 has improved the behavior when hitting a tank/SP gun, so they could be damaged in different ways, a similar improvement on AT/Guns will be nice.

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by GottaLove88s » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:01 pm

+1. Great suggestion Enric

If BA2 could have 5-man ATG crew, but show only one gun onscreen, that would solve a lot of problems.

For example, right now a sniper can take out any ATG using its guaranteed single kill shot... So MP games can't really work if they have snipers versus ATGs in the same scenario... Too easy
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enric
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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by enric » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:23 pm

This is an old claiming, in fact, in BA1 I already made a mod where snipers, or and infantry with gold level status, can't kill an artillery with a single shot.

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by jeggs » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:50 pm

ATG die way too easy, even if they are in bunkers. That is my observation, too. I dont buy them in MP matches, waste of credits.

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by cavehobbit » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:05 pm

enric wrote:I think the point is that AT, or any other artillery, have only one man crew.
The same fire (hit) on an infantry will have just killed a man, but not the whole unit.

If guns had five men crew, for example, this hit will have killed a man of the crew, and the gun will continue alive and firing (at less accuracy, or only one shot per turn, as one man less in crew.

BA2 has improved the behavior when hitting a tank/SP gun, so they could be damaged in different ways, a similar improvement on AT/Guns will be nice.
I really like the idea of having partial damage for artillery. For example different crew members could be hit to cause different effects like loader killed would reduce number of shot, or gunner killed would cause reduced accuracy etc.

enric
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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by enric » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:16 pm

cavehobbit wrote:
enric wrote:I think the point is that AT, or any other artillery, have only one man crew.
The same fire (hit) on an infantry will have just killed a man, but not the whole unit.

If guns had five men crew, for example, this hit will have killed a man of the crew, and the gun will continue alive and firing (at less accuracy, or only one shot per turn, as one man less in crew.

BA2 has improved the behavior when hitting a tank/SP gun, so they could be damaged in different ways, a similar improvement on AT/Guns will be nice.
I really like the idea of having partial damage for artillery. For example different crew members could be hit to cause different effects like loader killed would reduce number of shot, or gunner killed would cause reduced accuracy etc.
All this could be modded, just adding an attribute "crew" that keeps the number of men in the gun, but, it's a big change because it should be intercepted every kill (so modify combattools.bsf, firelogics.bsf, etc., and also control at starturn the gun possible damage, etc.). I would prefer to wait to see if it's included in the BA2 core.

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by cavehobbit » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:28 pm

enric wrote:
cavehobbit wrote:
enric wrote:I think the point is that AT, or any other artillery, have only one man crew.
The same fire (hit) on an infantry will have just killed a man, but not the whole unit.

If guns had five men crew, for example, this hit will have killed a man of the crew, and the gun will continue alive and firing (at less accuracy, or only one shot per turn, as one man less in crew.

BA2 has improved the behavior when hitting a tank/SP gun, so they could be damaged in different ways, a similar improvement on AT/Guns will be nice.
I really like the idea of having partial damage for artillery. For example different crew members could be hit to cause different effects like loader killed would reduce number of shot, or gunner killed would cause reduced accuracy etc.
All this could be modded, just adding an attribute "crew" that keeps the number of men in the gun, but, it's a big change because it should be intercepted every kill (so modify combattools.bsf, firelogics.bsf, etc., and also control at starturn the gun possible damage, etc.). I would prefer to wait to see if it's included in the BA2 core.
Ok. This is just an idea based on my very limited script experience. Would it be possible to copy the tanks unit type and make a new artillery type. Damage to it would be made by HE not AP, i.e. you use the same code for the tanks but change it so HE is what cause damage to the unit class? As I said, just a thought...

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by enric » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:59 pm

Not exactly, the case is not the same.

The tanks have only one man crew in BA like the artillery but they are damaged in the engine, or guns: immobilized, gun disabled, less visibility, etc.
These effects can't be transposed directly to artillery.

In my opinion, the artillery when suffering a crew kill, should lose accuracy, then with another kill suffering reload penalty, maybe one turn like the Sturmpanzer that takes a turn to reload, and so on. With only two men the artillery is not operative but not killed, so if you manage to reinforce (add men) you may make it operative again.

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by Tac2i » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:26 pm

My experience from lots of BA2 games is that AT guns are dead on the first strike from artillery type units at least 99% of the time.

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by buckykatt » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:18 pm

I understand what everybody is saying about the AT guns being destroyed with one hit, although the last time I played Hill 621 I set my AT gun in the middle of a north-south trench and it took out 3 T-34s before being taken out. I lost the battle but went down fighting!! I will typically take a couple AT guns in my battles (if allowed). Keeping transportation close, to "Gun and run" will work occasionally.

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by morge4 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:32 pm

GottaLove88s wrote:+1. Great suggestion Enric

If BA2 could have 5-man ATG crew, but show only one gun onscreen, that would solve a lot of problems.

For example, right now a sniper can take out any ATG using its guaranteed single kill shot... So MP games can't really work if they have snipers versus ATGs in the same scenario... Too easy
+1...would be nice to see a larger crew on the guns

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by dickesKind » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:00 am

The small crew size for AT-guns has been addressed several times in the last months.

Will Slitherine take care about this problem in the future or not?

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by Jonesy1760 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:56 pm

ATGs die on first strike far to easily....I have been playing skirmish mode a lot...lets correct this guys...its a great game

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by dickesKind » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:17 am

dickesKind wrote:The small crew size for AT-guns has been addressed several times in the last months.

Will Slitherine take care about this problem in the future or not?
Would be nice if someone from Slitherine would comment this.

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by JosephM » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:23 am

Hello Dickeskind,

Sorry if we do not always reply, but we do always read the forums. Iain is currently on annual leave, and I was waiting for him to reply to discuss it with him. I can't remember the map's name, but I know that Galangalad and I were playing a coop map where you are the Germans and you have a number of AT guns and have to defend bridges and you have tank reinforcements coming from the north. In that map, almost every time a mortar or similar hit an AT gun it killed it on the first hit of the barrage. At the time, we put it down to horrendous bad luck, but there may be an issue here to address. The problem is that balancing an entire class of unit is not as easy as it may seem - increasing the crew/hits it can take may help, but I know Iain has said elsewhere that adding extra crewmen wouldn't help due to the mechanic used.

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Re: Artillery versus anti-tank guns

Post by dickesKind » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:39 pm

Hello Joe,

thank you for your answer.
I see that this poblem is not easy too fix. But I hope you still look for a way to do it.
The current AT-gun-situation is horrible :(
I can't remember if it was the same in BA1?

Greetings...

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