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Stakes problems.

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:14 pm
by Scutarii
Well, i play a test battles and find some problems with longbow units using stakes.

First problem is that after a melee where the longbow unit (that have stakes ON) defeat and routed enemy unit they move, for me units that have stakes placed dont leave the stakes to fight out.

Second, in the same situation i see that longbow units with stakes ON that defeat enemy and routed it after this can move all the time with stakes ON, in this case they have the stakes visible.

Third, sometimes units with stakes deployed miss the image when move or after move can deply stakes but dont have the image...

Image

Image

For me to fix de problem with stakes is necessary that units with stakes deployed cant move or chase enemy units after defeat them and if they are defeated leave the stakes in the battlefield as an obstacle for HH or HF units.

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:16 pm
by IainMcNeil
I think units with stakes should not pursue - would this fix all the issues? I don't really understand issues 2 and 3 on your list.

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:23 pm
by batesmotel
iainmcneil wrote:I think units with stakes should not pursue - would this fix all the issues? I don't really understand issues 2 and 3 on your list.
I would expect that archers behavior for pursuit should be consistent with the TT rules. The longbowmen should already not pursue if attacked by mounted. Since stakes are really only intended to stop mounted charges, the longbowmen should probably not have deployed them if facing foot and I think they will abandon them in the TT rules if they pursue foot they have broken.

Chris

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:31 pm
by IainMcNeil
Following the TT is probably best - I have never seen them used :)

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:38 pm
by Scutarii
Well, i only see infantry (HF and MF) units attaking my longbow units with stakes deployed and can say that after defeat the attacker and routed them longbow units pursue enemy but dont leave the stakes and you can see a unit with stakes deployed behind the enemy´s back and after loose enemy´s back they can move with stakes deployed and show in the unit image :roll: this is the second point of my post.

Third... well, you can see the images and see that units that dont have stakes images have them placed.

I dont know the table game but i dont find realistic that units with defensive deployment provided by stakes leave then to chase enemy... to kill injured enemies or search for booty or rescues could be, for example in Azincourt brit King loose many rescues because their units kill injured enemy but i think that not all the unit leave the stakes and do the dirty job because carrion searchers are to weak and need a "fort" to retreat if enemy returns :wink:

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:55 pm
by batesmotel
iainmcneil wrote:Following the TT is probably best - I have never seen them used :)
In the TT rules, serious English players seem to forgo buying the stakes on the assumption that the drilled longbowmen are maneuverable enough to be more effective used in an active manner rather than sitting stationary behind the stakes. In the TT rules, it also requires a CMT to emplace the stakes, so it is more difficult/riskier than I think it is in SOA. ( I haven't actually tried them yet in the SOA beta.) Of course the TT rules do no not have the current reduction in shooting POA for MF that move and fire so maneuvering longbowmen is in some ways less effective in the PC game.

Longbowmen who do pursue should abandon their stakes, not take them with them. I do not have my TT rules here so I don't remember off hand under what circumstances they should pursue opposing foot who break. Historically, English longbowmen were not averse to wading in to hand to hand combat under the right circumstances which is one reason why they are equipped with swords as well as their longbows, unlike most MF missile troops.

Chris

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:10 pm
by keithmartinsmith
Pursuit in the PC game is as the TT rules. Foot pursue foot and sometimes mounted depending on a CMT. Stakes make no difference. If anyone thinks differently a reference to the page and paragraph in the TT rules would be very helpful.

Thanks
Keith

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:52 pm
by batesmotel
keithmartinsmith wrote:Pursuit in the PC game is as the TT rules. Foot pursue foot and sometimes mounted depending on a CMT. Stakes make no difference. If anyone thinks differently a reference to the page and paragraph in the TT rules would be very helpful.

Thanks
Keith
What is intended to happen with emplaced stakes in FoG PC is the owning BG does pursue?

If I wasn't clear, I haven't been arguing that pursuit behavior in FoG PC was different from FoG TT, just that I think they should generally be consistent. I don't have my TT rules here to check for consistency at the moment.

Chris

p.s. Keith, how was playing FoG TT in Athens?

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:39 am
by keithmartinsmith
I think all the stakes issus are fixed as part of the next update. Thanks Keith

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:11 pm
by Najanaja
How are stakes deployed?
Thanks
Robert

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:59 pm
by batesmotel
Right click on the BG. Should be in help but doesn't appear to be yet.

Chris

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:41 pm
by Scutarii
Well, this bug isnt a stakes problem but have one unit of this involved... see the screen and the "support" message :wink:

Image

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:26 pm
by Examinondas
I think that's the same bug discussed in this thread: viewtopic.php?t=15811

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:33 am
by Najanaja
batesmotel wrote:Right click on the BG. Should be in help but doesn't appear to be yet.

Chris
Tried that - only option I see is facing change (talking English longbow HYW)
R

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:49 am
by Geordietaf
I've only just discovered how to deploy stakes in the middle of a battle. I found that stakes can be deployed by a unit AFTER it has been engaged in melee. Hopefully this will be prevented in next update, as the picture of archers whistling gaily while they fight with one hand and hammer the stakes in with the other boggles my mind.

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:14 pm
by batesmotel
Arminius wrote:
batesmotel wrote:Right click on the BG. Should be in help but doesn't appear to be yet.

Chris
Tried that - only option I see is facing change (talking English longbow HYW)
R
Are you sure you bought stakes with the archers? I know it took me a while to figure out how to do that by clicking on the PD (portable defenses) circle in the army list.

Chris

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:13 am
by Najanaja
batesmotel wrote:
Arminius wrote:
batesmotel wrote:Right click on the BG. Should be in help but doesn't appear to be yet.

Chris
Tried that - only option I see is facing change (talking English longbow HYW)
R
Are you sure you bought stakes with the archers? I know it took me a while to figure out how to do that by clicking on the PD (portable defenses) circle in the army list.

Chris
That will be the problem!
Thanks