Casulties

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Tolien
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Casulties

Post by Tolien » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:19 pm

How is it with casulties in the game, if you lose half your army in a scenario (though unlikely) does that meen that you have to fight the next battle with half the force that you could have, or do you get additional requisition points to compansate?

Aloo
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Re: Casulties

Post by Aloo » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:26 pm

you will get requisition points at the end of a scenario. Those will go automatically to fixing your damaged units. If anything is left you can spend it on new units.

Tolien
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Re: Casulties

Post by Tolien » Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:13 pm

The question is, is it enough points to replace heavy losses?

I also finnished an scenario, where I had 1600 points left "in the bank" and my casulties where all replaced before the victory screen.. the next scenario, I had 500 points.. so some of them kinda got lost between the scenarios, though not spent on anything..

The casulty quiestion still stand I would say.

Aloo
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Re: Casulties

Post by Aloo » Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:24 pm

Im not sure if you pay for lost HP or only for lost units. Its hard to tell what is going on exactly as this data is hidden.

So I guess you are right that the question is open.

IainMcNeil
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Re: Casulties

Post by IainMcNeil » Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:03 pm

Up top a point yes - it depends how much you lose in other battles and what difficulty level you are on as this affects the number of points you get to spend.

Kerensky
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Re: Casulties

Post by Kerensky » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:23 pm

Actually no I don't think that's right. It doesn't depend on how much you lose in other battles, every battle has its own point total that is pretty much immune to all outside interference. That was definitely one of the concepts I struggled with, let me tell you! :oops:

It does mean, however, that if you lose 90% of your CORE in a nasty scenario, you can continue the game by building up a new force in the next scenario. I watched this happen to my friend during his playthrough, he lost all but 3 units when escorting the captured Ork in a Gorgon transport mission, but he re-built his core in the following campaign mission and continued forward.

It also means that if you spend all your points up front on say... Mission 10, and then lose no units going into mission 11, it appears you have almost no point increase to change or modify your CORE.

Mission 10 might have a 15000 point limit.
Mission 11 might have a 15500 point limit.

If you lose no units at all during 10, going from 10 to 11 you only get 500 extra points during the deploy phase. If you lose 90% of your units in 10, when you enter 11 you will have 13500 points to build up a brand new force with because all of that 'point limit' has been freed up.

This is definitely one of the more serious concepts we find players struggling with, and it has it's tendrils affecting some other areas of the game too. Players are further encouraged to always go 'all in' during deploy rather than store a reserve for mid mission reinforcement or replacements because they can't store or preserve points for example.

It's a well meaning system and it does solve some PzC 'snowball' issues, but definitely something that could use some attention and adjustment as the game moves forward! :)

Falke_MatrixForum
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Re: Casulties

Post by Falke_MatrixForum » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:35 pm

Kerensky wrote:It's a well meaning system and it does solve some PzC 'snowball' issues, but definitely something that could use some attention and adjustment as the game moves forward! :)
Part of the 'snowball' issue is due to having to pay Points to reinforce between Scenarios. if These were free the it would be reduced,since a bad random result would have a limited effect on the campaign. It seems this is a mix between PG2 (SSI) and PG. That said i do expect that there will be a patch adressing any Major issues. I have a lot of Matrix/slitherine titles and their record in improving/supporting titles is good.

Kedo
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Re: Casulties

Post by Kedo » Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:51 am

Now it finaly makes sense, thanks Karensky. I was realy wandering, why my force received just a tiny (usualy <400) requisition after most missions (sometimes it wasn't even enough to autorefill my core units). So basicaly, if I want to buy new units or improve existing ones, I just need to let some die in previous mission...

steelwarrior
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Re: Casulties

Post by steelwarrior » Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:48 am

Would be really good to change it - I do not want to be punished for preserving units and playing well ;-)

CiZerin
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Re: Casulties

Post by CiZerin » Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:54 am

Kedo wrote:Now it finaly makes sense, thanks Karensky. I was realy wandering, why my force received just a tiny (usualy <400) requisition after most missions (sometimes it wasn't even enough to autorefill my core units). So basicaly, if I want to buy new units or improve existing ones, I just need to let some die in previous mission...
steelwarrior wrote:Would be really good to change it - I do not want to be punished for preserving units and playing well ;-)
omglol why? You know, you can sell units during deployment phase, right?

Kedo
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Re: Casulties

Post by Kedo » Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:47 am

CiZerin wrote:omglol why? You know, you can sell units during deployment phase, right?
no, I did NOT know that... and I'm at 23rd mission (Defending Tartarus industry) at second hardest dificulty... feel free to imagine what issues I faced not knowing that...

JimmyC
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Re: Casulties

Post by JimmyC » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:23 am

This explanation is an eye opener for me. I was also seriously confused as to how it worked. I understand why the developers went along this route, but would prefer if there was some incentive or reward for keeping your force alive, building up reserves, etc. Still, its interesting to know and provides a bit of a cushion for some of us who are getting pounded by the Orcs.

nexusno2000
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Re: Casulties

Post by nexusno2000 » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:40 am

Kerensky wrote:Actually no I don't think that's right. It doesn't depend on how much you lose in other battles, every battle has its own point total that is pretty much immune to all outside interference. That was definitely one of the concepts I struggled with, let me tell you! :oops:

It does mean, however, that if you lose 90% of your CORE in a nasty scenario, you can continue the game by building up a new force in the next scenario. I watched this happen to my friend during his playthrough, he lost all but 3 units when escorting the captured Ork in a Gorgon transport mission, but he re-built his core in the following campaign mission and continued forward.

It also means that if you spend all your points up front on say... Mission 10, and then lose no units going into mission 11, it appears you have almost no point increase to change or modify your CORE.

Mission 10 might have a 15000 point limit.
Mission 11 might have a 15500 point limit.

If you lose no units at all during 10, going from 10 to 11 you only get 500 extra points during the deploy phase. If you lose 90% of your units in 10, when you enter 11 you will have 13500 points to build up a brand new force with because all of that 'point limit' has been freed up.

This is definitely one of the more serious concepts we find players struggling with, and it has it's tendrils affecting some other areas of the game too. Players are further encouraged to always go 'all in' during deploy rather than store a reserve for mid mission reinforcement or replacements because they can't store or preserve points for example.

It's a well meaning system and it does solve some PzC 'snowball' issues, but definitely something that could use some attention and adjustment as the game moves forward! :)
This was VERY helpful! Too bad it wasn't in the manual :D

I just never understood why I started some scenarios with almost no points, even when I had taken very little casualties.

The jury is still out as to whether I like it or not, but at least now I understand the underlying reasoning.
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Aekar
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Re: Casulties

Post by Aekar » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:29 am

You should know that you are far from being alone in that situation CiZerin.
I myself played many scenarios without more than 10 Req points, and units still wounded.

But in any case, playing with an army that you keep has a tremendous addictive gameplay to it.
It also brings much flavour, and the feeling that your army might have a few things to it, that your friends do not.

The "army wiped" mechanic works well when your army gets wiped...
However, "not knowing" could have been better for me :)

Steakenglisch
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Re: Casulties

Post by Steakenglisch » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:42 pm

I hope this point will get some fine tuning, i had some maps with under 100 RP ... in this case Upgrades are often impossible. And a punishment for good playing ... hmmm

Whats about getting RP for killing enemy units and capturing Victory Hex to generate RP's during the Map, and an Transfer of the earned RP's? What are the actual plans for this?

Khayyin
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Re: Casulties

Post by Khayyin » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:58 pm

The problem I have with this system is that normaly I seldom lose entire units, they just get damaged. So it happens very often that at the start of the scenario, because I did lose no or only 1 or 2 units but the units got mauled I get tiny amounts of requisition. Most of the time it is not enough to repair/reinforce more than a few units and if I lose a unit often I can't replace it so that coreslots remains unused. This leads to lot of halfstrenght units and there were some scenarios that were unbeatable for me because of that.
I did start on the highest difficulty and had to restart the campaign on the second highest difficulty because it was absolutly no fun. And still sometimes I have to restart a scenario several times until I win with few damaged units or I lose so much units that i can rebuild my force so until my starting force is complete enough to beat the next scenario. This kills the game for me and I don't want to continue playing at the moment. It is impossible to screen your units like in Panzer Corps and you will take loses this is sure. But if you do not lose entire units you are completly handicaped. You will be punished for trying to not lose units.
I do not use only the best units I use lots of infantry (all motorised) 3 tanks and 2 artillery units at the end of chapter 1. I can understand this descision that it prevents only taking the best/most expensive units. But I do not play this way and it makes my game no fun.

Before reading this discussion I was absolutly unclear how this worked. I even believed that it could be a bug. Because I thought it can't be that the better I play, the fewer units I lose, the harder the game gets. Some missions as a result were even so hard that I could not finish them.

Caveman
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Re: Casulties

Post by Caveman » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:43 pm

So... restarting the campaign because I lost 80% of my core in mission 12 was unnecessary? (I didn't finished that scenario, but I could have won it...) :oops:

Anyway - I miss the prestige-bonus for destroying enemy units or take cities/bases not belonging to your main goals. That always gave me the impression that my effort got honored by the high command in PzC. Could be thought of as a salvage-bonus too (ok, that is hard in the case of orkish weapons, because we all know they just work because the Orks believe they do).

Aekar
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Re: Casulties

Post by Aekar » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:05 pm

You get that as Glory points Caveman.
However, "Glory" does deserve its name here... :)

CiZerin
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Re: Casulties

Post by CiZerin » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:24 pm

Khayyin wrote:You will be punished for trying to not lose units.
What? How? Really? Why so many ppl keep saying that you will be punished for trying to not lose units. Even after devs explained how RP system works.
If you don't need particular unit, you can sell it for its full price on deployment stage and buy another one you need. What's the problem?

Khayyin
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Re: Casulties

Post by Khayyin » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:55 pm

CiZerin wrote: What? How? Really? Why so many ppl keep saying that you will be punished for trying to not lose units. Even after devs explained how RP system works.
If you don't need particular unit, you can sell it for its full price on deployment stage and buy another one you need. What's the problem?
It just does not work this way in the higher difficulties. First of all by doing so you lose all experience. Second. At the moment at the start of the scenario I have 2 core slots missing and 15 req. Half of my units are below strenght( I could replace them with the same new bought units but at the loss of exp), the units I permanently lost the last scenario was a leman russ extinguisher and a salamander scout. So I miss an AT tank and my second recon vehicle.I need all non infantry units because in my core most of my units have a specific task. So to get a replacement (AT tank) I need to disband 3 infantry units(because they are the only expandable units) or one of my needed and experienced units like support or long range artillery or AI Tank. The first solution would aggravate my problems now i would have 4 missing coreslots. And the second solution would mean that I lose half my artillery and that would make the scenarios even harder and still missing two coreslots. I did try disband some good units and buy lots of cheap filler units like hive militia and conscripts. It did not work. Still in my corefore I have 1x militia with autoguns and 2x conscripts as frontlinefooder.

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