Submarine/Naval warfare

[StuccoFresco]

Hello, I'm making my first naval scenario in my mod and while testing it I started having a lot of questions about naval warfare and particularily submarines.

I see for example that ships don't return fire: you can freely fire at your enemy without fearing any repercussion. This makes an overly aggressive tactic always the right choice, doesn't matter if you are a destroyer firing your small cannons at a Battleship: it won't fire back!

Another thing I don't understand is that if you try to enter an hex where an unseen submarine is, you detect it automatically and you can fire at it with impunity. There is no "ambush" even if it would be the PERFECT opportunity for the submarine to torpedo you! Also, if I place a submarine in the editor with any number of Destroyers next to it, none of them will locate it with the Sonar. Sonar will only allow you to fire at a submarine that you already located by... running into it. This sounds completely backwards!


Now, if that's all true... how can I change it?

[Erik2]

Naval return fire was removed from the game. I vote for reinstating it.
Agree, when you bump into a sub it should get a free ambush, something similar to mines.
I would also like to see much more powerful sub attacks. Currently they just nibble at a surface ship. In real life one sub could sink a carrier in one multi-torpedo attack.
DDs should perform an automatic sonar-sweep at the end of the turn (if they have not moved/attacked). You can of course perform a manual sonar-sweep during your turn. As far as I know, this works ok.
If I remember correctly, a surfaced sub can only be spotted by an enemy unit next to the sub.

[StuccoFresco]

I agree 100% with everything you said.

Thinking about how mines work had me wondering if that kind of damage could be used with submarines... But that would make submarines very powerful because they can't be detected in any other way besides taking damage from them! If only sonar sweeps could detect unseen submarines (like it's supposed to do)...

I have to think more about this.

About returning fire I have no clue. Ranged attacks never trigger return fire, so even changing damage type to Mechanical would do nothing.

[Erik2]

I think naval return fire was removed because a single ship would counter-attack every attacking enemy in range. A bit too much and not very realistic.
In real life one or two (if you had primary/secondary guns) would be targeted.
In OOB this may be solved by limitng the return fire to the closest enemy ship(s).

[StuccoFresco]

Or a number of time per turns. After all, if the attackers always hit first, the defender will be whittled down and thus every return fire will be weaker. This would be much better than the existing system that can see five destroyers running up to a Battleship and gunning it down with zero repercussions.

[Erik2]

The devs could also implement the artillery hot/ worn tubes detoriation in naval guns.

[StuccoFresco]

I'm thinking about reversing it all: making ships fire at zero range, to see if they trigger retailation, with the "primary guns" ability for Cruisers and Battleships at different ranges (i'm thinking 2 for cruisers and 3 for battleships). This would also greatly reduce the amount of available firing solutions per turn, avoiding the "alpha strike with no retailation" problem.

[Pwnerade]

In my experience, unmoved destroyers do perform an automatic sonar sweep at the end of the turn. However, since it's the end of the turn, there's no chance to attack the submarine. It just lets you know there's one around. What I find frustrating is that destroyers can't do the sonar sweep after moving. Because of this, unless a submarine is already within range of a destroyer, there's no way to find it, aside from blundering straight into it.

[StuccoFresco]

Sonar sweeps doesn't seem able to detect submerged submarines: I tested it with 6 destroyers around a submerged sub and none revealed it for 2 turns straight. It only allows ships to target a submarine that has been already discovered by a ship that tried to enter its hex.

[GabeKnight]

Sonar sweeps can only detect submerged subs that have moved previously.