China DLC

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best75
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Re: China DLC

Post by best75 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:59 am

I will be very intrested in a china DLC. Even though I am chinese I know very little of the war there in China.

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Re: China DLC

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:10 am

jomni wrote:Just to backtrack a bit. Manchuria is the home of the last Chinese Dynasty (Qing). These are actually Jurchen nomads who conquered Ming China in 1600s. I suppose the Han Chinese and anti-monarchy KMT has no love for Manchuria and happily handed it over to the Japanese.
Then why fight at all? There was some reason for China to want to keep it (industry), so at least something happened there. Just not enough for a 10-scenario campaign.

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Re: China DLC

Post by simcc » Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:11 pm

Been searching the net, seems the Chinese both communist n kmt don't have navy n planes.......will be hard to create a chinese faction for the dlc

best75
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Re: China DLC

Post by best75 » Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:38 pm

simcc wrote:Been searching the net, seems the Chinese both communist n kmt don't have navy n planes.......will be hard to create a chinese faction for the dlc
Really? As much as they were poorly equipped theres no way they would not have an air force and navy

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Re: China DLC

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:41 pm

By 1941 they had lost all their major ports, and the US was lending them an airforce. Remember that China has been in turmoil since 1898 or so, and hasn't had the stability to settle down and build all these planes.

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Re: China DLC

Post by kongxinga » Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:38 am

I would so get a China DLC as long as Nationalist Chinese were playable. There have been too many pacific theatre games where KMT China is passed over, axis and allies board game being one of the worse offenders, even though I applaud their later token efforts to put in China in a minor bit actor role. Gary Grisby World at War had a separate Chinese side, and I recall people complained that the Western Allies were lumped together. Lumping UK and US made more sense then having US represent china in axis and allies.


I would not say it is fair to say the KMT handed Manchuria over without a fight. The KMT badly wanted to fight, and did as much as they could in a bad position. Manchurians are chinese too, qing dynasty, jurchen or not. Putting aside that many of the Manchurian defenders were not central army units and hence were acting independently (Young Marshall Zhang's faction), we should recall that in 1931 there had been a civil war between the Anti-Chiang Coalition and the central government, and hence the situation up north was in tatters. There was significant resistance, with large numbers of men from many factions, including Central government. Nonetheless the main reason for the policy to discourage resistance was the hard fact that delay was beneficial to the Chinese and harmful to Japan, and any way of preserving forces to train up and modernize was paramount.

Why was resistance unfeasible? Note that China has been in constant war since 1924 (noting that in 1931 there was the BIG central plains war). Some history books will talk about the Golden 10 years between 1927 and 1937. Even stalin started out in a better shape and had time for 3 five year plans before Germany invaded, 10 years is barely enough to modernize and build up, but people made the best out of it, since war was pretty much unavoidable. And of these 10 years it was pretty much constant fighting anyways.

What was in the pipeline for China by delaying and preserving forces, trading space for time? Well for starters, the contract to train German styled divisions could have more time to train up german equipped and trained troops. More Pak 38s, armoured cars, delivery of several modern ships. There was even plans for Bf109s. This is why several historians pointed out the big difference 2 years made. If Chinese diplomacy and grand strategy had gotten it wrong, allowing Japan to attack in 1935 by allowing their militarists to seize power sooner by creating an excuse for them to need more power and troops by resisting in the wrong place and time, China would not have stood much of a chance. But if they had delayed it to 1939, Japan was looking to be facing 60 German divisions, and several mechanized divisions, and modern fighter planes, meaning that being pushed off the mainland was a distinct possibility, and there was a good chance for a reverse counter attack on the home islands. The Japanese militarists complete takeover of power was delayed till 1937 through several means in history, which meant the intermediate result of a stalemate and slow loss for Japan.

That's is the reason for Chiang's words 'Cannot fight". It means there was no ability to fight until time was had to train up. It does not mean that KMT "did not want to fight" like Mao's propagandists like to twist words. KMT wanted to fight, but grim reality meant that without a delay China was doomed.

In short, there was not much ability to put up a fight because that will paradoxically empower the Japanese militarists, allowing a full invasion sooner. I mention communist propaganda above, but I like to say to those people, where were the communist units eh? Far away in the rear, growing opium and stealing from people as they always did.

At the tail end of the Manchurian campaign was the defense of the great wall. The KMT sent Liu the bald and many troops there. This is where the famous 7 man army incident happened. I think you can see life sized statues of the seven solders in Kinmen. They held off 1000 Japanese troops and 30 tanks to buy time for a counterattack. Early northern campaigns was known for the ferocity of fighting when prudent and possible.

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Re: China DLC

Post by simcc » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:17 am

@kongxinga, nice information hope the developer can put it in good use and more research on developer is needed.

I would say for sure if there is a China DLC with Chinese translation this game can sell in huge volume due to able to tap the Chinese market. But I do hope the developer can put the fact correct as Chinese KMT and Communist both have supporters don't wanna turn the game into a big argument.

IMO, KMT have weak leadership and corrupted under Chiang and he was hoping that the allied can solve Japan issue and reserve his force to fight Communist once the Japan war is over as he famously wrote, Japan is the disease of the skin while Communist is the disease of the heart hence the no fight policy exist and also why so many Chinese supported Mao later as Mao is doing all the hard work to disrupt the Japanese supply line.

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Re: China DLC

Post by robman » Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:09 am

The previous two posts illustrate the difficulty in modeling this conflict: it was really a three-way fight. The KMT and the Communists both wanted to expel the Japanese, but both also had to keep in mind the showdown that would follow the Japanese defeat, and so all military (in)action against the Kwantung Army was evaluated in light of its potential "postwar" consequences. (Chiang also had to worry about coup attempts and fractious warlords, but in the interests of relative simplicity, let's treat the KMT as "one side.") Ideally, the player would have the option of playing any of the three sides--Japan, KMT, or Communists--and if playing the KMT or Communists, the conflict would continue after the defeat of the Japanese. I don't know if this can be simulated with the OOBP engine, but if it can, take my money now, please!

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Re: China DLC

Post by simcc » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:57 am

Robman 3 faction is certainly interesting as this DLC can even cover the civil war ending which saw KMT exile to Taiwan the final showdown. However creating 3 faction might cause the CCP campaign to be very hard for the developers as there are many non recorded battle did by the CCP army as at that time the focus of historian is only at KMT and allied US, UK effort on war against Japan.

All CCP battle can only be found in word of mouth pass down from those Chinese involve which is why many books published never mention how CCP move from south to north China and control most of the Northen China country side. Also due to the fact most CCP soldier is peasant so not much record where found either as they can't write. According to most publishers CCP only have 2 army which is the 8th and 4th and they never had any air or armour division. But if you study CCP and its war against Japan from the peasant view and all those villager version of war you will find some most interesting fact ie how CCP manage to equip 1.4m troops with weapons at the end of the war to fight KMT. I study Chairman Mao and his journals before as I was really interested in this man and what I found is that the truce with KMT was a ruse from the start from Mao as he knows KMT is controlling all allied supplies in which they will never arm CCP army hence he made a truce so in the eyes of the IJ there is only 1 Chinese army the KMT and in Japanese record as well the Japanese sees the communist as a nuisance but never a real threat due to its small operation and small army. Chiang knows this too which is why he is very reluctant to fight the Japanese in an all out war as he need to reserve his strength to fight the growing CCP. According to the village stories pass down from generation is that CCP able to gain such a strong support due to its propaganda machine ie the 8th army which at that time was recruiting from Northen China countryside and they arm themselves by raiding Japanese army depo (control by Chinese turncoat serving the Japanese) mainly under Wang Jing Wei a defector from KMT to Japanese. The CCP never struck any rail lines as instructed my KMT to cut Japanese supplies due to the fact CCP don't want the Japanese army to focus on them. At a point the CCP is even buying arms from KMT warlords (which is very corrupted at that time). So if the developer wants to create a CCP campaign they will really need to dig deep on the CCP history and its rise to power and how they fight the Japanese and ultimately control most of the Northen China countryside. Also note is that US consider at a point to arm CCP due to their effort of rescuing American pilots but was rejected by KMT Chiang hence US never supply arms to CCP except for some medical supplies
For KMT campaign it should be far easier as there is many records of their battles namely Shanghai (twice) Nanking, Wuhan, Changsha etc. Also the KMT have a small air force namely volunteers from western world first the Russian pilots then the U.S. pilots and they use P40 IIRC.

I would say this game have get me back on my history again hahahaha as I find myself watching the miniseries Pacific and other movies on Pacific war.

Note: the information on CCP above is purely my findings and opinion which might not be accurate as many are those stories told by the countryside Chinese which in fact like to exaggerate things to make it interesting and heroic hahaha. Also note I am a over seas Chinese which explains my interest in Chinese history hehehe

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Re: China DLC

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:00 am

Overall it seems any Chinese campaign would either have to be really complicated or really unrealistic. :roll:

There is always a possibility it will work however.

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Re: China DLC

Post by kongxinga » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:04 pm

Yeah sorry did not mean to spark a flame war. Just saw "handed Manchuria over without a fight" and had to go correct that common misinterpretation. I personally see the Reds as more like NPCs in a potential DLC. They act independently, modified by your relationship with them (and go from all out fighting the Japanese to truce, and all out fighting the KMT to aligned). Also they should respawn periodically, and keep getting up even when destroyed. Near the russian border they should also have the ability to retreat out of your reach (whether Japanese or KMT).

While the KMT has kept an excruciating log of all campaigns, battles, down to small skirmishes (There is an exact number that people used to refer to for each), as far as independently verified records go (that is verified by Japanese, Russian or other foreign records), the CCP had 1 big battle (hundred regiments) and several small skirmishes, including Ping Xing Guan against the Japanese. Hundred regiments was pretty bona fide, as for Ping Xing Guan I think it was overblown, because KMT historians don't even give names for skimishes that small, so Ping Xing Guan was a bit blown out of proportion. I can't see how to string a proper campaign together for the CCP for so few battles of size. Post war civil war battles had several battles that can be represented, but that sounds very out of scope and probably best for a mod.

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Re: China DLC

Post by simcc » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:43 am

Agree with king ingat that CCP is better represented as NPC as support raiding party and act randomly depending on the mission to show that they have different agenda as the KMT. Also I think that KMT should have the option to attack CCP NPC in mission to show that during that period that temporary alliance is full of backstabbing and in game maybe you get some RP for each CCP uniy destroy.

Also the Japanese side should include its own Chinese army like those under Wang Jing Wei and I do hope we have a mission to assassinate him as in real life except the attempt failed, would love to hunt down traitor hahaha

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Re: China DLC

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:14 am

kongxinga wrote:Yeah sorry did not mean to spark a flame war.
To be honest, I don't think you really did.
simcc wrote:Agree with king ingat that CCP is better represented as NPC as support raiding party and act randomly depending on the mission to show that they have different agenda as the KMT. Also I think that KMT should have the option to attack CCP NPC in mission to show that during that period that temporary alliance is full of backstabbing and in game maybe you get some RP for each CCP uniy destroy.

Also the Japanese side should include its own Chinese army like those under Wang Jing Wei and I do hope we have a mission to assassinate him as in real life except the attempt failed, would love to hunt down traitor hahaha
It would probably work, but ultimately the conflict is very difficult to put into a game accurately and so there are sure to be errors. It will most likely be successful if everyone ignores the fact that there were 3 or 4 sides to the fight and that China be represented as 'China'. Otherwise we will spend the whole game trying to figure out who is friends with who, and miss out on the fun of the new content, thereby wasting hours of our lives.

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Re: China DLC

Post by Erik2 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:12 am

I've ordered a couple of board-games on the Sino-Japanese war to check out if it is possible to give it a OOB-tratment.
I don't know too much about it, so it should be an interesting exercise anyway.

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Re: China DLC

Post by naturesheva » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:38 pm

In my opinion, the ideal campaign for China DLC should be like this:

"An autobiography of people's general"

Stage 1:Warlord Era, Northern Expedition 1926-1928

Stage 2:2nd Sino-Japanese War 1931-1945

Stage 3:Chinese Civil War 1945-1949

Stage 4:Korea War 1950-1953

The story line is about a Chinese general who grown up during all these wars in his military career. He joined KMT in the beginning, and cross over to CCP during the Civil War, finally involved into Korea War as a People's General.

The whole campaign will cover a very long period, from 1926 to 1953. Which will be very interesting to see how to transfer from a WWI type war into a post WWII type war.

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Re: China DLC

Post by calmhatchery » Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:21 am

2nd sino-japanese war 1931-1945 will be cool !!!

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Re: China DLC

Post by mroyer » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:07 pm

calmhatchery wrote:2nd sino-japanese war 1931-1945 will be cool !!!
Way cool... but I do think the time frame '31 to '45 is far too big of a bite to swallow - as others have pointed out there is too much political convolution throughout this long, long time-frame for a "war"game to deal with effectively. Moreover, most of that time would be idle from a military campaigning point of view.

However, if we narrow the scope to run from July 1937 to Dec 1938 we get a huge, contiguous, militarily-coherent campaign which would be extremely interesting, to say the least.

Before July 1937, the military events are disjointed with only a loose, strategic connection. They are often the ploy of local officials and commanders. After July, there is a concerted effort on the part of Japan as a nation to conquer China and topple the KMT government (GMD in current-day pin-yin). During this period, the Japanese conquer an enormous portion of China by means of back-to-back offensives that are strategically focussed. The campaign is largely one-sided, but is very fluid and interesting and from time-to-time Chinese forces do, indeed, surprise the Japanese.

In addition, during this time ('37-'38), the CCP are small (3 military divisions and scattered guerrillas) and not terribly significant militarily, and so can be safely ignored eliminating the 3-side issues and saving game-sanity. It isn't until much later (the 1940's) that the CCP becomes very large and a significant factor in the conflict.

After 1938, the fighting continues but the battle lines have largely stagnated. A few occasional incursions aside (like Changsha), the overall campaign has bogged down into a stalemate. By 1940, Japan is hoping to marginalize the KMT which is operating in remote Chungking (Chongjing) by installing another government in Nanking (Nanjing) using the same national flag and name (Republic of China) led by a former top KMT figure (Wang Ching-Wei). Not until 1944 does any significant, theater-wide action occur when the Japanese launch the Ichigo offensive aimed at linking Indochina with China along the connecting rail still under KMT control. They need to do this for a logistic connection to Japanese forces in southeast Asia - the sea route being nearly cut off by the U.S. Navy.

Anyhow, '37 to '38 would be a great China campaign and one that is realizable from a designer/developer point of view.

-Mark R.

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Re: China DLC

Post by BiteNibbleChomp » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:18 am

mroyer wrote: Anyhow, '37 to '38 would be a great China campaign and one that is realizable from a designer/developer point of view.
And would be the perfect basis for a continuation into Burma, India etc. 8)

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Re: China DLC

Post by bebro » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:38 am

Interesting debate. Before you ask - there's nothing finally determined on this yet, so none of the following is any kind of announcement ;)

Some points to this debate though:

Depicting the whole conflict in China from 1931 (or even earlier) to 1945 is rather unlikely. That's pretty big for an addon, and dev resources are not endless.

A limited campaign or part of a campaign seems possible indeed. A problem might be that info seems rather limited for some aspects of the Sino-Japanese war (just my impression so far).

Re the points of equipment, naval-wise China was of course no match for the IJN, but afaik we don't have large-scale naval battles here anyway. Chinese air and land forces used various foreign types of vehicles and airplanes, so this part looks less problematic.

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Re: China DLC

Post by mroyer » Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:29 pm

bebro wrote: Re the points of equipment, naval-wise China was of course no match for the IJN, but afaik we don't have large-scale naval battles here anyway.
That's right. The Chinese Navy in 1937 consists mostly of smallish, outmoded river and coastal gunboats. They did have two relatively modern light cruisers, the Ping Hai and the Ning Hai operating in the lower Yangtzee region. If I recall correctly, both were sunk by Japanese aircraft in the first weeks of the 1937 conflict. The Ping Hai and the Ning Hai were ironically purchased from and refitted by the Japanese.

The best English-language source for the Chinese Navy that I've seen is The Chinese Steamboat Navy by Richard N J Wright
https://books.google.com/books?id=ETLxV ... &q&f=false

bebro wrote: Chinese air and land forces used various foreign types of vehicles and airplanes, so this part looks less problematic.



Indeed. Also, less known in the West is the Soviet Volunteer Group of about 450 pilots that go to China in the latter half of 1937 to help combat the Japanese air force. The Soviet group, like the American AVG (flying tigers) much later, fights along side the Chinese Air Force. The Soviet group use mostly I-16 fighter aircraft with some bombers.

Turns out there's a Wikipedia page for this now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Volunteer_Group

Prelude to Pearl Harbor: The air war in China 1937-1941 by Ray Wagner
http://www.amazon.com/Prelude-Pearl-Har ... B0006P0KOU

There's another source on the Chinese Air Force that I liked even better, unfortunately the citation escapes me at the moment :(



===========
As an overall general-read on the military aspects of this conflict, I'd recommend Frank Dorn's The Sino-Japanese War, 1937-41;: From Marco Polo Bridge to Pearl Harbor. It's a well written, interesting read by Dorn who lived through the events as a military attache to Stilwell in the late 1930's. His book interweaves is own personal experiences with detailed battle accounts from a military perspective.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Sino-Japanese ... 0025322001

Another good, period source, if you want to dig deeper is the Japanese Monographs: http://ibiblio.org/pha/monos/
There is a set of them on the conflict in China starting in 1937. These are written by Japanese officers after the war and so are subject to all the inaccuracies of memory - but, nevertheless are a very good place to find info for a wargame designer.
Most relevant are Monograph No. 166 covers Japanese air in China, No. 178 covers operations in north China, 179 central China and 180 south China.

-Mark R.

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