Wolfpacks - how to knock out escort ships?

[Andy2012]

I have a few issues with the Wolfpack mission.

First, the secondary objective should be worded more precisely: "Deal 4 damage with submarines to escort vessels." Because apparently, damage done with the FW 200 does not count.
Second, my subs hardly do any damage against the escorts (mostly 0). If I attack one, I have to get in close. He then uses sonar, waterbombs, and the other escorts swarm my subs and kill it. Now, how do I actually do 4 damage against escorts to get the commander (I really want it)? I thought about swarming one escort, but then I cant kill enough merchant ships: With the 3 turn reload time for torpedoes, I swarm one escort destroyer and miss several merchant ships and cluster my subs around for easy spotting and destruction. I feel the low damage here is not very realistic nor (gameplay-wise) fun. I mean, a destroyer was pretty flimsy and a torpedo had a powerful charge. It should do more than 0 to 0+ damage.
Third, the mission ends when I take out sufficient vessels. This dictates that I attack escorts first, not merchant ships and then try to swarm escorts. I think this should be mentioned somewhere or changed. It does make more sense to me to weed out that long line of merchant ships (they are potential spotters due to their sheer number) and then attack the lone escorts as targets of opportunity. Right now, this is impossible.

Am I missing things here? Any tips or ideas? How did you guys pick off the escorts or is this actually impossible?

Oh yeah, one more thing: When my subs fire torpedoes above water, they fire them from their side like a destroyer from its tubes, not like a sub does from either front or aft tubes. This does look rather silly.

[stecal]

torpedoes just seem to do too little damage. As someone requested in another posting, the random damage for torps needs to be something like 1-3 damage.

[kverdon]

Hi Andy,

Yes, given the pitiful efficacy of submarines in the game, that particular victory condition was a bit of adding insult to injury on the part of the devs. However, with some planning, timing and luck, it IS doable.

First off, forget about trying to sink the escorts, it is not going to happen. To deal out the 4 required damage this is what I did:
1. Buy 2 Type IX subs, you will need them and they are of marginal use later.
2. Pick on one of the exterior escorts, I chose the northern most one. Try to time this so that there is not a Patrol plane in the area.
3. Concentrate your subs on the single escort and make sure you have some battery power saved up.
4. Fire all 6 subs at the escort, with luck you will get 4 hits. Frankly, if you don't I'd reload the turn and try again till you do. The escort will depth charge back but will likely hit one of the weaker Type VIIs so not a big deal.
5. Scatter your subs away on the surface and then move back to attack the convoy.
6. Use your Condor to only attack the merchant ships. As it is not part of your core naval units, you get no credit for saving it and no loss for loosing it. Keep flying it until it crashes into the sea for lack of fuel, even at strength 1 it can sink a merchie. Use it to make up for the time lost swarming an escort.

Oddly, though Destroyers and Cruisers are pretty much invulnerable to sub attack the Renown class BCs get be hit for up to 2 damage from a Sub attack so your subs can be a tiny bit useful taking them on in later scenarios.

[Andy2012]

@Stecal and Kverdon: Thanks, that did it. Sacrificing the Condor and reloading like a madman when attacking the escorts worked.
However, that wasnt particularly entertaining. I mean, the mission was still pretty good when I figured it out and as a tutorial on the new sub mechanics, it kind of did its job. But still, torpedoes are still too weak. Either decrease reload time or make them hit harder. Oh yeah, and please fix that animation - firing torpedoes from the broadside of a sub just looks silly.

[Longasc]

I just reached this mission and yeah, have to agree: It shows that OOB's implementation of sub warfare is kinda weird and not too much fun. Sorry to say!

I guess I will puzzle it out somehow how to make it without losing a sub or doing 4 damage, but this scenario isn't too enjoyable - more like a "puzzle with awkward mechanics".

It's a pity that subs didn't get a total overhaul in Kriegsmarine.

[Longasc]

I just did it, there was another thing with "Wolfpacks":

I had to hold back delivering the killing blow to the 19th ship in order to do my 4 points to the escorts first.

Maybe this can be fixed by allowing players to go on after the 19th kill till time runs out. It's only 15 turns, after all.

[Andy2012]

I just did it, there was another thing with "Wolfpacks":

I had to hold back delivering the killing blow to the 19th ship in order to do my 4 points to the escorts first.

Maybe this can be fixed by allowing players to go on after the 19th kill till time runs out. It's only 15 turns, after all.

Me too. Knocked out 18 and then bumrushed an escort destroyer with all my subs. Five attacks, four damage. Only then let my Condor do the last transport.

BTW, the next mission, Surface Raiders, kind of annoyed me, too. Probably have to play it again to fully appreciate it.
I mean, it does simulate "running the gauntlet" of a superior British air and naval force pretty well. I really cant put my finger on it right now, but naval battles still feel kind of random to me. I got pretty good in land combat after Blitzkrieg and Eriks magnificent 41-42 campaign, but this just seems to elude me a bit.
Those big guns do not make a difference, for example. I do 0+ with the minor cannons and 0+ with the big f**kers and I wonder how that is supposed to change anything. That floatplane dogfighter looks ridiculous, havent tried it yet.
I probably have to put more thought into this, but somehow this feels a bit off. Maybe it goes away, maybe it doesnt. Will write more about this after playing a few more missions, most likely next weekend.
Anybody else?

[Longasc]

I think the way ships get deployed is slightly irritating.

You start off with maybe 2-3 ships, then after a few turns (you don't know exactly when at this point) the second waves arrives, after that the third.
It's again a bit learning the mission pattern by heart, e.g. you can sink an Aircraft Carrier by sending two subs from the last deployment wave there, and the merchant ships appear right after the first battles in range near the exit.

The big guns are useful against big targets, against destroyers a Hipper cruiser outperforms a Scharnhorst or Bismarck. Wonder about the differences though, the Bismarck gets basically +1 to small and large naval attack but loses 1 speed. Apparently that little +1 means lot, depends on the armor of the enemy ships. It's just not very intuitive.

[kverdon]

Andy, you do bring up a point about DD's. Killing DD's in the game is extremely frustrating and makes no sense at all. I have read dozens of accounts of surface actions involving Destroyers and in every single case, a single hit from a shell 8" or higher rendered the DD that was hit completely out of action. But for some idiotic reason, I can fire my entire task force of 2x BB, 1x BC, 2 x CA and 1x CL at a single DD and, at best reduce it to strength 1. Another Stupid and absurd aspect of the combat system.

[Andy2012]

@Longasc, kverdon: Valid points. You kind of have to know the mission already to do well. Maybe it is a learning curve, but my first win here wasnt that enjoyable. Maybe I'll try something different.
But to be honest, carrier battles were a lot of fun in the original OoB campaigns, but the sea battles (DDs, BBs, Cruisers etc) were the least fun back then, also subs were rather useless and stupid. I kind of feel like this hasnt changed that much. But maybe it is just a learning curve.

[chesspanzer]

Hello, I agreed with your opinion about U-boats, quite unrealistic. So I changed it in units.csv and.... it works!

More power of torpedoes and better defense when submerged. My subs are now Super-Uboats!

Also I changed time to reload (3 turns/days? slow crew ), now is 2 turns for me

Anyway one only DD must be more powerfull than one Sub (I think this is the limit) because 2 handicaps:
1) Only 3 turns submerged then on surface Sub is much weaker (anyway I improve a bit this too).
2) Sub fire only 1 torpedo each 2 turns (with mod.) while DD crush you all turns.

Regards.

[Andy2012]

Hello, I agreed with your opinion about U-boats, quite unrealistic. So I changed it in units.csv and.... it works!

More power of torpedoes and better defense when submerged. My subs are now Super-Uboats!

Also I changed time to reload (3 turns/days? slow crew ), now is 2 turns for me

Anyway one only DD must be more powerfull than one Sub (I think this is the limit) because 2 handicaps:
1) Only 3 turns submerged then on surface Sub is much weaker (anyway I improve a bit this too).
2) Sub fire only 1 torpedo each 2 turns (with mod.) while DD crush you all turns.

Regards.

Well, maybe the devs should tweak this then, too. Balancing is a long process and it seems to me that Kriegsmarine might need an update here.

[prince_blucher]

Hello Chesspanzer,
Could you share how/what you edited in units.csv to make your super-uboots? I mean which is the parameter to change torpedo power and reload time?
Thanks

mp ap steps fuel strength range LOS torpedo inf att veh att air sml att nav sml att nav lrg att sub att air def nav def torp def land def

[chesspanzer]

Hello prince_blucher. I changed "Torpedo" field.

surface:sub_type_vii_C, 2, 2, 15
submerge:sub_typeix_submerged, 2, 2, 17
surface:sub_typeix, 2, 2, 17
submerge:sub_typeXXI_submerged, 2, 2, 20
surface:sub_typeXXI, 2, 2, 20

First number=turns, second=range and third=power. Default was 3,2,10 all Subs the same.

Regards.

[prattaa]

What are the values for air launched torpedoes?

[prince_blucher]

Hello prince_blucher. I changed "Torpedo" field.

Thanks chesspanzer

[chesspanzer]

prattaa, I think is the same field "torpedo". For example German Tactical Bombers:

bomb:Ju87_C_B ...... 3, 1, 17
torpedo:Ju87_C_T
bomb:He59_B ....... 3, 1, 8
torpedo:He59_T

[mman69]

thanks chesspanzer for the sub modding i have done something similar not as much as you but know at least my subs feel like they are worth having one or two in my core plus its shown me how to mod other units cheers