Why I don't think export core will work for German campaign

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best75
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Why I don't think export core will work for German campaign

Post by best75 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:35 pm

WIn panzer corps we had the grand campaign where we could export our core from one year's campaign to the next. I believe order of battle is trying to do the same thing with the German campaign starting with blitzkrieg but with the current system of exporting core I don't think it will work.

One of the things I enjoyed in the grand campaign was taking care of my units and watching them grew from no experience to highly experienced over the campaign. The problem with order of battle export core is that the units only retain 30% of their experience. I believe this really takes away from the experience of having your own core because every time you export the core they lose most of their experience. Your 5 star unit from the last campaign that you took care of now has onlyjust over a star in experience.

Another thing I enjoyed was getting heroes. No matter if they are unique or from getting kills the heroes, they gave favor and made the units such as a inf unit that got two movement heroes so I was able to have a 4 movement heavy inf or a inf unit that got a spotting hero which meant I named him Inf Scout and often moved him first to benefit from his increased spotting range. In Order of battle the closest thing is the commanders which we get for achieving bonus objectives. Exporting core does not keep the commanders.

I understand that the things are done for balance reasons since the developers did not planned to have a core from morning sun to rising sun. So is not balanced and such experienced core would be OP but if the developers really want to make it enjoyable to transfer core than they need to change the export system for the German campaigns.

Andy2012
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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by Andy2012 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:49 pm

Agree. This has been brought up before and I think / hope the Artistocrats will come up with a different system over time.
However, this must be balanced carefully and requires a lot of testing, so dont expect a quick and definitive answer.

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by Kerensky » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:09 pm

Hello, author of said Grand Campaign here. :)

When I worked with Flashback Studios on the Panzer Corps Grand Campaign and other content, there absolutely were some changes made to the game systems and campaign ruleset. We had to slow down the rate of experience slightly (I think, maybe not actually), we absolutely put experience caps to prevent 5 star units from being made after an early DLC like 1939, we slowed down the acquisition rate for medals based on kill estimates from singular campaigns, we implemented the GUID linking system to attach specific campaigns to each other and only to each other to prevent importing problems, and more. Also, the most popular heroes of the Grand Campaign didn't actually exist in the first iteration. Rudel and his infamous multi-scenario acquisition path and +9/+9 stat insanity was added in after the whole campaign was completed, partly to serve as a free bonus update for the unveiling of the full Grand Campaign package and partly because we found unused assets that I was more than happy to put to use.

Granted that heroes and commanders work slightly different in OOB than Panzer Corps, as some of them even provide auras not just self buffs, but tuning this and other situations like this will be up to whoever is responsible for the OOB German linked campaign to work with the Artistocrats to figure out though. But once it's figured, at least in Panzer Corps, I was all set to crank out the Grand Campaign installments necessary to make such a giant campaign. It did take some tweaking and changes to modify the game ruleset to better facilitate a campaign of 100+ scenarios, but nothing so insurmountable that it could not be done with a little cooperation, adequate pre-planning, and good old fashioned elbow grease. :)

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by Asap » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:25 pm

I hope, that they will change the export system someday. I don't like it because it makes no sense for me as it is. I remember how disappointed I was, when I first saw what was left of my core force. I had lost all my commanders and nearly all the experience of my units, after I exported them from Morning Sun to Rising Sun. At least I would like to keep the commanders, that would be really great and a first step into the right direction.
"The sun is new each day" Heraclitus

GiveWarAchance
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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by GiveWarAchance » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:57 pm

Kerensky wrote:Hello, author of said Grand Campaign here. :)
:)
Thank you for making that fantastic game. And Rudel was a lot of fun for us cause when the giant Russian counterattacks were set upon my worn-out, thinly spread army, Rudel often saved my troops from certain doom. Rudel is not really godlike though cause his plane is weakened by cloudy weather and gets worn down by ground units with hefty AA defenses like guard troops and some types of tanks.

Here is an example. I had to replay this mission I think 3 times to survive this counterattack. It was the last mission I did this week in 1945 East. Most of the Russian units here have my planes overtop them including Rudel.
Image

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by Andy2012 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:45 pm

@Kerensky: I think I already said it elsewhere, but this should be repeated: Best. Hire. Ever. Good call, Artistocrats. Now, let him do more stuff after Burma Road, if he is available.

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by Kerensky » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:28 pm

GiveWarAchance wrote:Thank you for making that fantastic game. And Rudel was a lot of fun for us cause when the giant Russian counterattacks were set upon my worn-out, thinly spread army, Rudel often saved my troops from certain doom. Rudel is not really godlike though cause his plane is weakened by cloudy weather and gets worn down by ground units with hefty AA defenses like guard troops and some types of tanks.

Here is an example. I had to replay this mission I think 3 times to survive this counterattack. It was the last mission I did this week in 1945 East. Most of the Russian units here have my planes overtop them including Rudel.
Image
Wow that is a crazy battle, sometimes I forget how insane those late DLC became in terms of enemy force growth to combat the player's CORE growth. If my memory serves, that looks a lot like Poznan45. I think the intent there was to use that river line behind your army there to bottleneck the Soviets (note the victory hex placements) not clash into them in a full frontal assault! Pretty gutsy strategy there, but I am deathly worried your prestige can't handle that kind of brute punishment! It looks like your prestige reserve is... 7? :shock:

Anyways, I don't want to derail the thread with more Panzer Corps, but it yet another hard lesson here. Managing resources over a very long campaign. I find that giving too much is always the right answer, because someone with too much prestige can always find ways to spend it (buy ultra-expensive units, use elite replacements more frequently, play more aggressively, et cetera) while a player with too little prestige simply has no options left.
Andy2012 wrote:@Kerensky: I think I already said it elsewhere, but this should be repeated: Best. Hire. Ever. Good call, Artistocrats. Now, let him do more stuff after Burma Road, if he is available.
Aww too kind! :oops:

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by GiveWarAchance » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:12 am

Kerensky, that mission in the picture is I have to clear the area around the objectives of badguys, then rescue 3 units and bring them back to the southwest and hold for 1 turn after that. I think we are supposed to hold at that river line where the objectives are (as you mentioned), not rush pell-mell into the horde and try to take it on in a 'fair fight'. Yes I ran out of prestige very early so I was pulling out damaged units and planes every turn and sending them to towns in the rear area. At the time of the photo, the units have been rescued and are just arriving in the southwest.

The reason I thought I could fight that horde and survive is because I had my planes, including Rudel, reducing the horde while it waiting in its assembly area so I thought I had it nicely weakened already. That horde was even bigger before my bombers worked it over for about 6 turns. More of the horde is attacking in the south too against my house of cards. I did manage a DV by rescuing the units and by rotating my units around as they were smashed, and some had to run to west to barely avoid annihilation. Most of the horde was destroyed by my tanks, bombers and my infantry close assaulting the armor while in rough terrain. The next battle will be a lively urban scrap in Breslau.

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by GiveWarAchance » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:15 pm

Fighting in Breslau now in 45. The instructions said it would be a normal urban battle, but the Russian horde is quite deadly and they are immune to bombers. I think I have to redo it and bring in strat bombers instead of stukas. This is a mess. The hapless volksturm were massacred by the sadistic Russian assault.

Image

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by prattaa » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:13 pm

One thing I do not like about OOB and PC is the use of elite replacements. Where do these magic elite soldiers come from if not from disbanding another highly experienced unit? All replacements should be green but when a unit takes loses it should be weighted against the inexperienced portion of the unit instead of the veterans who have learned how to survive. Obviously heavy losses would hit the veterans hard as well but point is the experience calculations should be weighted differently. Maybe that's how it works in OOB but in my experience it doesn't seem to be.

I don't mind commanders leaving as in RL people get promoted and/or moved to other units. I don't have a huge problem with OOB core import system but the experience system could use some tweaks.

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by GiveWarAchance » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:26 pm

Elite replacements simulates when green soldiers join veterans and quickly learn from them. Like if you put green troops into an unskilled unit that just smokes weed, boozes and dwells on porno magazines, they are going to stay weak and probably get a lot worse. The added price is to simulate them being equipped with good equipment like new Tiger tanks going into a Tiger battalion are gonna be expensive, and troops getting the good camo gear, MG42s and panzerfausts. The system is good in the game for replacements, especially in Panzercorps where it is cheaper during refits between battles and double expensive during battles which maybe like you said including moving veteran soldiers from other units or fixed-up soldiers from field hospitals to refill quickly.

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by Andy2012 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:36 pm

GiveWarAchance wrote: unskilled unit that just smokes weed, boozes and dwells on porno magazines, they are going to stay weak and probably get a lot worse.
I think what you describe is "regular army". The stories I could tell and was told, holy cow. :mrgreen:

Anyways, you guys always ponder realism and think up elaborate rationalizations of how elite replacements work. Meanwhile, you just ignore the simple explanation: gameplay. It makes you care about your units and coddle them so they grow into the skilled veterans and specialists you care about and that dispatch foes easily. Without this, these games wouldnt be so addictive. Do you care about pawn 1 or knight 2 on the chessboard? No, you dont. Also, going for elite reinforcements or regulars is resource management, especially in the Grand Campaign in Panzercorps. So this is another thing you can obsess about when planning and upgrading your core. See my point? This is about human behavior, our love of hunting and collecting and self-improvement. And enjoying yourself is what gaming is all about. :D

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by GiveWarAchance » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:12 pm

I heard about the army's dark reality, especially NATO forces in Germany during the cold war they were particularly addicted to drugs cause of the endless boring inaction. I should have added in gambling too cause I heard that has been an army staple since ancient times.

best75
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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by best75 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:27 pm

Balance will be a serious issue. I believe some players playing the Grand Campaign found the later campaigns too easy compared to the earlier campaigns because their core was full of overstrength 5 star tigers and other high tech units

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by adherbal » Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:40 pm

We are planning the next German DLC more specifically with core importing in mind. This should include importing Commanders (who will also be getting some unique traits).

I'm not sure how experience will be handled. Setting an experience limit per campaign may work, but dropping it by X% for each consecutive campaign is essentially the same thing if X decreases each time.

For Example you play Blitzkrieg and get a number of 5 star units. Those are reduced to 3 star units at the start of the next campaign (-40% XP for every unit). Then in the 3rd campaign any units that worked their way up to 5 stars again are now reduced to 4 stars (-20%).
That gives more or less the same result as reducing XP gain and setting a cap of 3 stars for the 1 DLC and 4 stars for the 3nd DLC.
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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by Andy2012 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:52 am

adherbal wrote:We are planning the next German DLC more specifically with core importing in mind. This should include importing Commanders (who will also be getting some unique traits).

I'm not sure how experience will be handled. Setting an experience limit per campaign may work, but dropping it by X% for each consecutive campaign is essentially the same thing if X decreases each time.

For Example you play Blitzkrieg and get a number of 5 star units. Those are reduced to 3 star units at the start of the next campaign (-40% XP for every unit). Then in the 3rd campaign any units that worked their way up to 5 stars again are now reduced to 4 stars (-20%).
That gives more or less the same result as reducing XP gain and setting a cap of 3 stars for the 1 DLC and 4 stars for the 3nd DLC.
Not sure as well how you should handle exp. I am guessing that will have to revised several times before being final. A Wehrmacht Grand Campaign linking all DLCs might be tough to balance.

However, a major issue is the commanders and how they work. I think right now, since they have no attachments to particular units, they do not really help you in the way Panzercorps does to coddle and care for your core force. The area of effect thing some have is good, but there is still something missing. Maybe add a little event text why and in what circumstances a commander was promoted. You already use historical figures, why not tell something about them? Could also be handled via commander portraits.
(This can be a bit tricky with Wehrmacht commanders. I mean, who wants to read praise and heroic stories about some tainted guy like Rudel?)

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by best75 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:04 am

adherbal wrote:We are planning the next German DLC more specifically with core importing in mind. This should include importing Commanders (who will also be getting some unique traits).

I'm not sure how experience will be handled. Setting an experience limit per campaign may work, but dropping it by X% for each consecutive campaign is essentially the same thing if X decreases each time.

For Example you play Blitzkrieg and get a number of 5 star units. Those are reduced to 3 star units at the start of the next campaign (-40% XP for every unit). Then in the 3rd campaign any units that worked their way up to 5 stars again are now reduced to 4 stars (-20%).
That gives more or less the same result as reducing XP gain and setting a cap of 3 stars for the 1 DLC and 4 stars for the 3nd DLC.
Nice work planning ahead for the future German DLC. The fact you can import commanders is making me happy. This has given me faith you can make the import core system work.

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by Andy2012 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:52 pm

Andy2012 wrote: However, a major issue is the commanders and how they work. I think right now, since they have no attachments to particular units, they do not really help you in the way Panzercorps does to coddle and care for your core force. The area of effect thing some have is good, but there is still something missing. Maybe add a little event text why and in what circumstances a commander was promoted. You already use historical figures, why not tell something about them? Could also be handled via commander portraits.
(This can be a bit tricky with Wehrmacht commanders. I mean, who wants to read praise and heroic stories about some tainted guy like Rudel?)
I thought about this some more. How about you introduce a system for commander advancement just like the specialisation point system? You gain commanders early in the campaign / linked campaign of various dlcs. You could even start with some at the start. Then you get secondaries and thus add more commander points when you achieve them. These can be used to upgrade your commanders, e.g. better bonuses or larger area of effect. You start with weakish rookies and in 45, they are experienced veteran commanders. I know, this would be tough to balance and would require a lot of coding and testing. But it would ameliorate (hopefully) the rather pervasive anonymity of my units in OoB this way. I mean, I usually have a ton of highly experienced units at the end of a campaign, they are useful and I dont want to lose them, but they are interchangeable. At least I always felt that way.
Any comments?

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by koopanique » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:46 pm

Andy2012 wrote:Any comments?
I always like anonym and expendable units better. It feels more "army" and less "squad", if you take my meaning. And I like things to feel large in my operational strategy game :P
Also you can always rename your units even if that's less than what you actually want :|

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Re: Why I don't think export core will work for German campa

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:56 am

koopanique wrote:
Andy2012 wrote:Any comments?
I always like anonym and expendable units better. It feels more "army" and less "squad", if you take my meaning. And I like things to feel large in my operational strategy game :P
Also you can always rename your units even if that's less than what you actually want :|
See, I never used the renaming option here or in Panzercorps. I've seen people do it and obsess about that and naming their units 'Totenkopf', 'Viking', 'Leibstandarte' and so on (all notorious Nazi fanatic units with a large roster of warcrimes). This has always creeped me out. My idea is that self-improvement motivates us all (it should, at least) and hunting and gathering is one of our human instincts. Improving your core with new weapons and maybe improving your commanders with more powerful effects over the course of the campaign can increase immersion. You are still controlling a large army, they are just more customized. And you can again ponder and obsess which upgrades to get to your commanders.

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