Burma Road so far...

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kverdon
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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by kverdon » Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:02 pm

Actually Andy, the Japanese used the Banzai charge at the beginning of the war right up to the Battle of Peleliu in Oct. 1944. I believe the last Banzai was on Saipan. It worked against earlier war Allied and Colonial troops but hit a brick wall at Guadalcanal when they came up against some fairly tough Marines and against Marine Arty, Mortars and automatic weapons fire against which it WAS suicidal. The issue in the game is that you have more plentiful troops with heavier artillery and AT along with infinitely better air cover and command control than the Allies had in 1942.

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Kerensky » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:42 pm

koopanique wrote:
Andy2012 wrote:I suggest making an engineer unit with a truck (if you have one) the rearguard and lay mines in the city. This way, you wont lose the supply so fast. Generally, after you held the mouth of the pass as a secondary, run. Go for the Northwest along the road, capture the small city in the west (relieves supply problems) and then go for the north-west. You shouldnt loiter anywhere. Next few missions get substantially easier.
Thanks, just finished the scenario. I did as you suggested and mined the city, and as matter of fact the enemy never even took the main city of Kawkareik, nor its airfield. (Although, they encircled the city, making its supplies useless anyway.) I think it's because of the mines I layed. The city looked like this after I was done with it:

Image

The AI never dared to take clear up the mines for some reason.
Hah, that's pretty creative. You left quite some booby traps behind for the advancing Japanese.
And I guess you killed all the JP engineers, because I know JP engineers definitely sweep mines if they can.

Andy2012
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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:02 pm

kverdon wrote:Actually Andy, the Japanese used the Banzai charge at the beginning of the war right up to the Battle of Peleliu in Oct. 1944. I believe the last Banzai was on Saipan. It worked against earlier war Allied and Colonial troops but hit a brick wall at Guadalcanal when they came up against some fairly tough Marines and against Marine Arty, Mortars and automatic weapons fire against which it WAS suicidal. The issue in the game is that you have more plentiful troops with heavier artillery and AT along with infinitely better air cover and command control than the Allies had in 1942.
This is not about history, but about AI programming. Sure, Banzai does not work when the shock effect wears off and your enemy knows what is or might be coming. You just put automatic weapons in the front and wait for an easy victory.

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Andy2012 » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:02 pm

@Kerensky: Worked really well in Winter War. The AI struggles a lot with mines.

kverdon
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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by kverdon » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:45 pm

I finished Kawkareik Pass and I did mine the city but at Medium difficulty, I found that to be unnecessary as the AI never came close to taking it. I actually finished with 3 Indian units still defending the City. The key to the mission is the secondary object to hold that pass. Throw everything you have at the pass as the victory condition (like most in the series) is not well defined. You do not complete the mission by simply defending the pass but by also killing X amount of the attacking 1rst wave if IJA troops. You need to counter attack and rack up an early body count. Use your armor and arty to blunt the 2nd wave and it can be cleaned up with the Indian Troops and a small rearguard. Head everyone else NW and you should be able to clean up the NW city in plenty of time.

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Andy2012 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:50 am

kverdon wrote:I finished Kawkareik Pass and I did mine the city but at Medium difficulty, I found that to be unnecessary as the AI never came close to taking it. I actually finished with 3 Indian units still defending the City. The key to the mission is the secondary object to hold that pass. Throw everything you have at the pass as the victory condition (like most in the series) is not well defined. You do not complete the mission by simply defending the pass but by also killing X amount of the attacking 1rst wave if IJA troops. You need to counter attack and rack up an early body count. Use your armor and arty to blunt the 2nd wave and it can be cleaned up with the Indian Troops and a small rearguard. Head everyone else NW and you should be able to clean up the NW city in plenty of time.
Whoa. What is your army composition? I play mostly lightinf, light AT, heavy arty (British light arty cant move and shoot light the Wehrmacht ones), some tanks, all Spitfires for air cover. That is not enough for that massive force coming down the pass, especially with all the infantry coming at me.

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Andy2012 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:16 am

Finished Operation Longcloth. Being THE iconic mission of the Burma campaign (go check out those chindit documentaries on youtube, worth watching), I was really looking forward to this one. But man, that one is difficult, too. Racing towards the drop zones while being chased by the Japanese is something else. I managed to blow up the planes, railyard and three bridges, but it was really close. Lost Wingate.
If anyone has managed to find and destroy the Jap HQ, please post here. And post your strategies. I feel like this a really tough one.

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by kondi754 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:07 pm

You do not read posts during beta testing. :lol:
Take a look there, I put the screenshots where HQ is. :wink:

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Andy2012 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:33 pm

kondi754 wrote:You do not read posts during beta testing. :lol:
Take a look there, I put the screenshots where HQ is. :wink:
I did by now and blew up the HQ.
I really appreciate all the beta testers' and Kerensky's efforts for balancing this mission. But I really think it requires still some tweaking to be fun.
I dont want to be a whiny bitch who complains about other people's hard work, but some points:
1. Chindits lose supply too fast. 3 turns like Paratroopers is just too little, especially when moving through the jungle in slo-mo and being chased by tanks. Make it 6 or 9.
2. Out of supply units get so slow, it grinds gameplay to a halt. I spend turn after turn inching towards targets or supply. This is boring.
3. The Japs overrun my evac point regularly. I camp Wingate near it while trying to go for my secondaries. But their tanks and infantry find that beacon in the mountains irresistible and capture it and camp there.
4. The AT and light arty lose supply immediately. They should be special Chindit versions with a supply stash feature. Otherwise, they are slow and useless. Or add a chindit mortar unit.
5. Jap trains cut my supply and are used as aggressive scouts.
6. Going stealth is not an option when overrunning supply zones (which are supposed to be hidden) is a regular event.

Summed up, I know that this is difficult to balance. And I really, really dont want to be disrespectful to everybody's hard work, especially after skipping betatesting. But even though this mission might be close to the historical realities, some tweaks and balancing might be necessary. I suggest taking the Jap tank and moving trains away, increasing Chindits supply stashes to 6 or 9 turns. I mean, heavy inf is already powerful enough to knock my Chindits out, this is fine. But that tank makes running away impossible. And losing supply really fast and my evac point overrun makes each turn just a crawl fest. Which is not fun.

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by bru888 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:47 pm

Just so you know, Andy, your concerns were brought up in beta. The designer's view was that it is a difficult scenario indeed but players have the option to "bug out" early. That response was accepted but only reluctantly because, and this is just my opinion, it will be a waste of a scenario for most players because your reaction will be typical, I believe. Most players will "bug out" early.
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Andy2012
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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Andy2012 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:57 pm

bru888 wrote:Just so you know, Andy, your concerns were brought up in beta. The designer's view was that it is a difficult scenario indeed but players have the option to "bug out" early. That response was accepted but only reluctantly because, and this is just my opinion, it will be a waste of a scenario for most players because your reaction will be typical, I believe. Most players will "bug out" early.
Yeah, I read that thread by now. But you cant really bug out if your evac zone is overrun. And staying in to win is not an option if your evac zone is a Japanese camping ground, too. I still like the idea of the mission, but maybe the Japanese should stop short after overrunning two supply zones and leave you the last one. And leave your evac alone. Some minor tweaks and this might be easier.

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Kerensky » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:04 pm

There was special effort put into place to ensure the evac zone is indeed left alone. Do you have a screenshot documenting this to be untrue? I recall several attempted playthroughs ruined by camping JP tanks on top of Zulu evac, but this was fixed by judicious use of mountain terrain.

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Andy2012 » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:33 pm

Kerensky wrote:There was special effort put into place to ensure the evac zone is indeed left alone. Do you have a screenshot documenting this to be untrue? I recall several attempted playthroughs ruined by camping JP tanks on top of Zulu evac, but this was fixed by judicious use of mountain terrain.

Sure. As you see, I am not making this up. By turn 30, all my suppy zones are overrun and any attempt to get the last bridge with my SAS (this issue persisted, so I bought two SAS instead of Chindits since these are supply immune) is futile. Crawlfest.
Screenshot 34.jpg
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Kerensky
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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Kerensky » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:54 am

That's the first time I've ever seen JP infantry camping out on Zulu, that's pretty disappointing. My recommendation would be to change your tactics and try to thin out your pursuers some more. I found the best way to tackle the scenario is actually to split your forces. When you do that, it also splits the JP pursuit, which is important because you can actually fight them and hold on to supply zones better when they are scattered. The strength of the chindit isn't in conventional fighting, but using them to ambush your pursuers, and occasionally sacrificing some of the Chindits to slow down enemy capture of the supply zones, is critical to the scenario.

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Kerensky » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:50 am

From what I understand of the AI settings, there is no specific instruction for the AI to actually approach Zulu evac point. They are on a hunting pattern, not a move order nor a capture VH order. But what is happening is that if they are lured closed enough to it, the AI has enough freedom to just continuing advancing towards it. Why it decides to camp there despite its instructions is questionable, but it does make good sense. If the AI can see an empty VH, it should probably go after it.

Bottom line, my recommendation for stronger guerrilla tactics stands. Splitting up your forces and tackling multiple objectives and supply areas at once thins out the pursuit. Though you are liking to take some serious casualties, this is not ahistorical as the Chindits suffered some egregious causality rates, and it's also why the mission provides an abundance of auxiliary units that are expendable by their very nature.

Good luck, it's definitely difficulty, but absolutely possible, even on the highest of difficulty settings! :)

It does seem like any turning off of the AI pursuit would remove all threats from the scenario though. If there was no hot pursuit, the player would just leisurely take their time skulking through the jungle for many turns, not actually fighting enemies just avoiding them. That is a two fold problem of a lack of combat to keep the scenario pace on an interesting level, and would require a dramatically shorter mission clock to compensate as an alternative difficulty producer.

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Andy2012 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:49 am

@Kerensky: I'm pretty sure you didnt mean it that way, but I am not stupid or sloppy with this. I finished the mission with Jap HQ destroyed and bridges down. (Not both. Can only do one. And went for SAS instead of Chindits because the supply issue.)
I already split up my forces, but they all ran out of supply. If I camp at one zone to hold it, it gets swarmed and
I dont have enough units to hold them or attack my objectives.
Also, I didnt lure the Japs to the evac zone. I blew up the bridge, crossed the river and was out of sight for a few turns when they showed up. I avoided them, they went for the flag. And dug in. I think if you script the Jap AI to overrun your first two supply zones but leave you alone in the southeast, this might work. You have the pressure to run after knocking out the planes and train yards, but have a fighting chance to knock out the southern bridges and escape.
Anyways, I get that this is difficult to tackle and any Burma campaign without the Chindits would be incomplete. But right now, I really need to take a step back from this. It is getting exhausting. (That is why I was a bit careful when considering betatesting. It just destroys my love for this game and makes it into a tedious chore...)

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Asap » Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:03 am

Andy2012 wrote:@Kerensky: I'm pretty sure you didnt mean it that way, but I am not stupid or sloppy with this. I finished the mission with Jap HQ destroyed and bridges down. (Not both. Can only do one. And went for SAS instead of Chindits because the supply issue.)
I already split up my forces, but they all ran out of supply. If I camp at one zone to hold it, it gets swarmed and
I dont have enough units to hold them or attack my objectives.
Also, I didnt lure the Japs to the evac zone. I blew up the bridge, crossed the river and was out of sight for a few turns when they showed up. I avoided them, they went for the flag. And dug in. I think if you script the Jap AI to overrun your first two supply zones but leave you alone in the southeast, this might work. You have the pressure to run after knocking out the planes and train yards, but have a fighting chance to knock out the southern bridges and escape.
Anyways, I get that this is difficult to tackle and any Burma campaign without the Chindits would be incomplete. But right now, I really need to take a step back from this. It is getting exhausting. (That is why I was a bit careful when considering betatesting. It just destroys my love for this game and makes it into a tedious chore...)
I couldn't enjoy this mission as well and I wrote it in the beta forum (twice), the supply-situation is just too bad, it's a little frustrating somehow..
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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by WarHomer » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:57 pm

I´m still strugling with Karawakei Pass on General (hardest diff).

First mission ever that I´ve really (really) struggled with, but its fun.

I think I´ve done about 5-6 restarts and still not close to a win. I´ve been trying the engineer/mine approach for the last 3 attempts, but get my ass kicked when trying to take out that last city in the NW and my supply run out. I figure it´s very random how long you can keep up the supply, since one attempt with 2 engineers and ALOT of mines didn´t change anything.

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Andy2012 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:46 pm

WarHomer wrote:I´m still strugling with Karawakei Pass on General (hardest diff).

First mission ever that I´ve really (really) struggled with, but its fun.

I think I´ve done about 5-6 restarts and still not close to a win. I´ve been trying the engineer/mine approach for the last 3 attempts, but get my ass kicked when trying to take out that last city in the NW and my supply run out. I figure it´s very random how long you can keep up the supply, since one attempt with 2 engineers and ALOT of mines didn´t change anything.
There is a city in the west (not the target) that you can seize on your way to the final target city for 15 supply. That helps. You should also mine the airfield you leave behind since even though you cannot land planes then anymore, it gives you supply for your airforce. Also, have transport for your AT, arty and engineers, light inf is fast enough on paved road on its own. Run like hell. Still, it is a close call and I play on medium.
BTW, here the suicidal AI helped - it charged at my exhausted, but prepared men and impaled itself on my AT positions.

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Re: Burma Road so far...

Post by Boarspear » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:21 am

Two questions:

Quit India scenario -- you are supposed to "herd" the protesters -- just how do you do that? I found if I let a unit stand still next to a worker it will be attacked by that worker unit. Also, when I found Gandhi he was in an unreachable area that could not be surrounded. Is this a special puzzle? SPOILER ALERT?!: Gandhi was in the small island in the bay ... hopefully his location is random, but I found no way to move units amphibiously to him. Had to do an IGOTNUKES on this scenario.

Race for Rangoon -- seriously? I am surrounded by what appears to be three times my strength. The Japs have at least twice the number of planes I have. Rather tough -- haven't got through it .. still trying to figure out where those supply points are, since everything is defended in depth and I have a couple of very strong counterattacks (with a lot of strong tanks!) on my flank.

I am a wuss and am playing on easy .. but I am still enjoying this immensely. I think everything works well, except for the Quit India scenario. I found Operation Longcloth to be rather realistic in terms of what I've read of Orde Wingate's difficulties -- I used only Chindits and managed to accomplish several goals -- destroyed the rail yard and a bridge, and found retreating to the evacuation LZ went fine -- I went nowhere near it til the end and no Japanese units approached it.

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