UNIT SCALE - qusetion

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mmihai9352
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Re: UNIT SCALE - qusetion

Post by mmihai9352 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:14 pm

kondi754 wrote:1 inf/hv inf unit - division - (17.000 men's) - OK it depends on nation but OK, Soviets inf division count 6000-8000 men's
1 eng/commandos/specials unit - battalion - (300-700 men's - OK) OK
1 tank unit - regiment - (about 100 tanks?) 100-200 depends on period of war, Soviet used tank brigades (was smaller - 50 tank)
1 artillery (at/aa also) unit - regiment (24 guns?) 24-48, it depends on nation
1 recon unit - battalion/abteilung - (300-700 men's - OK) OK
1 air unit - wing/regiment/geschwader - (100 planes? ) OK but Soviet used division, regiment was smaller like German gruppe (30-40)

and how many kilometers has ONE HEX? :)
I measured the from the (2 scenario in BLitzkrieg and I see that one hex is 5km it is ok?
For example from Sochaczew city to Warsaw city is 70 km = 14 hex I think so, but consult this with Erik

Please correct me if something is wrong...
Thanks for the clarifications. This is great stuff.

kondi754
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Re: UNIT SCALE - qusetion

Post by kondi754 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:33 pm

Supplement:
light/medium artillery regiment - Wehrmacht: 48 guns or howitzers, other armies 36-48
The rule is: the larger caliber, the less guns
heavy artillery or heavy aa/at regiment - 24 guns (i.e. Soviet SU's heavy regiment counted only 14 vehicles)
paratroopers unit - battalion too

calmhatchery
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Re: UNIT SCALE - qusetion

Post by calmhatchery » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:35 pm

thanks KOndi. Pelase belive me Im thinking how to fix the problem to be more historical in OOb but still with very good gameplaying. Soon Ill put my scenario

AceDuceTrey
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Re: UNIT SCALE - qusetion

Post by AceDuceTrey » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:30 pm

I like most of kondi's scale except for the infantry and tanks:
Infantry should be regiments/brigades. Divisions, especially mobile ones (motorized/mechanized) had their own Recon (Aufklarungs abteilung), anti-tank, and anti-aircraft battalions AND an Artillery regiment. With 3 infantry regiments
their average frontage was ~10 Km with a depth of about 5 km. This would give most artillery a range of 1 hex and all units a spotting range of 1 hex. also the infantry's fire power in the game falls way short of what a full division should have.
The rgt/bde model would better suit the game's infantry and their support weapons fire power as well as the game's artillery ranges.
I think tanks should be battalions/abteilungs like the other units their firepower and defenses are scaled with such as anti-tanks. Tank battalion frontages were also equivalent to infantry regiments putting the hex size/diameter at about
2 miles or 3+ kilometers.
Using German 1939 TO&Es a Motorized Infantrie Div would consist of 8 units: 1 Recon(222?). 3 Infantry(hvy?), 1 Spt Wpn(leIG), 1 AT(towed 37mm), 1 AA(towed 20mm), 1 Art Rgt(105mm leFH)
A Panzer Div 9 units: 1 Recon(232?). 1 Infantry(hvy), 3 lePz(1 PzI,2PzII?), 1 mPz(PzIII/IV), 1 AT(towed 37mm), 1 AA(towed 20mm), 1 Art Rgt(105mm leFH)
A problem game designers have is that most larger units/regiments (Infantry, Armor, Artillery) had combinations of weapons. For example: the 4 German tank Bns were typically combined into 2 ~balanced regiments of 2 Bns with each having PzIs, PzIIs, and PzIII/IVs. Artillery Rgts had 2 or 3 Bns of 105mm and 1 Bn of 150mm. While support weapons Bns (IGs, ATs, AAs, etc,) were habitually broken down into much smaller "platoons" to support multiple units.

kondi754
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Re: UNIT SCALE - qusetion

Post by kondi754 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:00 pm

AceDuceTrey wrote:I like most of kondi's scale except for the infantry and tanks:
Infantry should be regiments/brigades. Divisions, especially mobile ones (motorized/mechanized) had their own Recon (Aufklarungs abteilung), anti-tank, and anti-aircraft battalions AND an Artillery regiment. With 3 infantry regiments
their average frontage was ~10 Km with a depth of about 5 km. This would give most artillery a range of 1 hex and all units a spotting range of 1 hex. also the infantry's fire power in the game falls way short of what a full division should have.
The rgt/bde model would better suit the game's infantry and their support weapons fire power as well as the game's artillery ranges.
I think tanks should be battalions/abteilungs like the other units their firepower and defenses are scaled with such as anti-tanks. Tank battalion frontages were also equivalent to infantry regiments putting the hex size/diameter at about
2 miles or 3+ kilometers.
Using German 1939 TO&Es a Motorized Infantrie Div would consist of 8 units: 1 Recon(222?). 3 Infantry(hvy?), 1 Spt Wpn(leIG), 1 AT(towed 37mm), 1 AA(towed 20mm), 1 Art Rgt(105mm leFH)
A Panzer Div 9 units: 1 Recon(232?). 1 Infantry(hvy), 3 lePz(1 PzI,2PzII?), 1 mPz(PzIII/IV), 1 AT(towed 37mm), 1 AA(towed 20mm), 1 Art Rgt(105mm leFH)
A problem game designers have is that most larger units/regiments (Infantry, Armor, Artillery) had combinations of weapons. For example: the 4 German tank Bns were typically combined into 2 ~balanced regiments of 2 Bns with each having PzIs, PzIIs, and PzIII/IVs. Artillery Rgts had 2 or 3 Bns of 105mm and 1 Bn of 150mm. While support weapons Bns (IGs, ATs, AAs, etc,) were habitually broken down into much smaller "platoons" to support multiple units.
I fully agree with you, but my conversion scale is based on the observations of the campaigns made by the Artistocrats team.
I think even underestimated tank unit, which, however, should be the equivalent of division.
If we would base on your scale, there should be at least 24 :!: tanks units in Belgium scn (Blitzkrieg DLC) and minimum of 40-50 :!: tanks units during the Battle of Kiev in 1941.
These numbers are unrealistic in my opinion.

AceDuceTrey
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Re: UNIT SCALE - qusetion

Post by AceDuceTrey » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:58 am

This is the problem with the scenarios! I was shocked by the OPFOR in the Blitzkrieg Campaign. I was able to solve this (in part) by drastically reducing the support requirements for the units in the unit file.
All infantry =1; hvy inf and paras =2. For armored fighting vehicles I used the scale: Maus =7; PzVIB(King) =6; PzVI(Tiger) =5; PzV(Panther),PzIVJ =4; PzIII(5.0cmL60),PzIVF2-H =3;PzIII(G-H),PzIV(F1) =2; all others =1.
This gives you a fighting chance against the thousands of enemy "divisions".

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