21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

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Mojko
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21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by Mojko » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:43 am

Which one do you prefer? Which artillery is overall better? 21 cm Mrs 18 or 17 K18. I find that after the last artillery patch it seems that 17 K18 is better because of the extended range you don't need to move that much so you have extra time to recover efficiency. But the cost is quite high and I find myself choosing the cheaper and more powerful 21 cm Mrs 18 early in the campaign. What do you think? Which one do you use?

Btw big thanks to the developers because I feel that after many artillery patches the artillery is finally well balanced.
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PoorOldSpike
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:30 am

I've got the unspeakable bad habit of always buying the guns/tanks/planes/ships etc that'll give me the highest body count, so in that respect I'd plump for the 210cm job because it turns more of the enemy to mush-
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However, its range is only 5 hexes...
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...compared to the 170's sensational 8 hex range (note the 170's longer barrel)-
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The 170 costs more, so you're paying for 3 hexes extra range, your call..:)
Both guns can move 1 hex per turn, but you need an Sdkfz7 (cost 40) to pull them quicker.
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Halvralf
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by Halvralf » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:21 am

Mojko wrote:Which one do you prefer? Which artillery is overall better? 21 cm Mrs 18 or 17 K18. I find that after the last artillery patch it seems that 17 K18 is better because of the extended range you don't need to move that much so you have extra time to recover efficiency. But the cost is quite high and I find myself choosing the cheaper and more powerful 21 cm Mrs 18 early in the campaign. What do you think? Which one do you use?

Btw big thanks to the developers because I feel that after many artillery patches the artillery is finally well balanced.
It's a dilemma... but I prefer the extreme range of the 17cm . 21 cm has more bang for the buck but 8 hex range....I'm just saying..... :D
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance."

PoorOldSpike
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:47 am

And for good measure I couldn't resist just running this test to compare ALL the German guns killing power firing at range 3 against a non-entrenched Brit infantry unit-

Image

RESULTS (in order of best)
2+: 21cm Mrs18
2 : 15cm sFH18 / 17cm K18
1+: 10.5cm leFH18 / 75mm Fk18 / 75 leIG18
1: Karl Gerat 40
0+ Nebelwerfer

(Note- the figures are also the same against infantry with a low 3 entrenchment level, but their killing power begins to drop at higher entrenched levels)
PS- the tests are with vanilla OOB v 5.2.9
Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:05 am, edited 5 times in total.

Andy2012
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by Andy2012 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:52 am

You should consider shock value, too. Damage isnt everything. The Nebelwerfer works wonders here. Interestingly, also against tanks.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:16 am

Andy2012 wrote:You should consider shock value, too. Damage isnt everything. The Nebelwerfer works wonders here. Interestingly, also against tanks.
Yes, my tests only cover a few basic details like a dating agency, the Nebelwerfer terrifies me with its shocking whooshing noise that suppresses the foe, just like some women terrify and suppress me..:)

bru888
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by bru888 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:21 pm

Hmm, now you have placed the image in my mind of rocketing women, whooshing and shocking me into suppression for which I would be grateful. Thanks a lot, Spike. :roll:
- Bru

GabeKnight
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by GabeKnight » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:57 pm

I'll always go with the 17cm 8hex range. Never bought anything else (except Wurfrahmen for shock). I'd rather save up money and go without arty for a mission than buying that cheap stuff and wasting upgrade money on it later.
With the high range I can keep my arty out of the enemy's line of sight and therefore there's usually no extra AA support unit needed to protect the arty's positon that far from the front. (Airfields and arty positions are the only one's warranting supporting AA units anyways IMO.) Also I can use the 17cm to bombard enemy artillery positions without fear of return fire. And if everything goes like planned my arty units never lose more than 1-2HP (max!) during a campaign.

But I'd very like to have a mobile version of that unit as already proposed by Mojko here :twisted:
Last edited by GabeKnight on Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Horst
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by Horst » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:47 pm

I guess no one cares here that the 17 cm K18 was first introduced 1941 and not 1939 or before, unlike the 21 cm which was available since Poland and most likely first used against the Modlin fortress.
Ignoring dates, range seems often superior due lesser requirement to reposition the gun. Range comes handy if you require counter-firing enemy artillery or AA-guns for bombers. Also, the further away the guns are from the front line, the less chance is they are spotted by enemy aircraft, although the AI can still spy into the fog-of-war in some cases, so that's not always an advantage anyway.

13obo
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by 13obo » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:01 pm

For me it's range > damage on arty with same shock attacks as is the case here. I love the wurfhammer but it is too squishy so I don't get more than 1.

Horst
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by Horst » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:32 pm

13obo wrote:I love the wurfhammer but it is too squishy so I don't get more than 1.
It's Wurfrahmen 40 (throw-frame), but Wurfhammer sounds and fits definitely better!
It was possibly the strongest mobile artillery weapon the Germans had and one of the reasons the Soviets had trouble overrunning the retreating Germans in late-war. The single napalm-like rocket among the five other explosive-rockets was devasting to unarmored units. It burned anything within 200m², and the air-pressure sucked the whole air away that suffocation was the result. It must have been a similar terrible effect like thermobaric weapons today.
I'm not sure if such fuel-bombs had a wrecking effect to armored vehicles these days too due burn and loss of air. I guess it was still difficult to use such weapon against mobile tanks with the short range and lack of constant, shifting bombardments.

Halvralf
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by Halvralf » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:58 pm

Comparing them in the unit Navigator reveals that the 21cm is 2 better than the 17cm in close attack and 1 better normal. 21cm also has 3 in assault damage so my conclusion is that it's good to have a mix of both.
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance."

13obo
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by 13obo » Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:00 pm

Horst wrote: It's Wurfrahmen 40 (throw-frame)
Nice! I probably wouldn't have ever spotted that I'm reading this wrong. This is what happens when you try to read long German words and then appropriate them to something you know.

Mojko
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by Mojko » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:24 am

Thanks for the feedback, lot useful information there. Note that assault value of 21 Mrs 18 is higher as well.

Here is a link to UNT that shows the comparison of both artillery units.
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PoorOldSpike
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:05 am

Costs are another thing to be considered, for example you could buy 5x little 7.5cm leIG18's for the same cost as 1x big 17cm K18 !
This is the purchase screen for April 1945, I don't know if costs fluctuate from year to year?

Image

PS- I'm a self-propelled fan myself because they can move and fire in the same turn whereas a towed gun can't, so a self-propelled gun can fire twice as many times as a towed gun in a mobile battle. Or to put it another way, you can ram a self-propelled gun in the enemy's teeth each turn..:)

Image

13obo
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by 13obo » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:42 am

I also like SPGs but they cost too much CP- the only one worth investing the CPs is the wurfrahmen 40, but it's too squishy as I mentioned.
Last edited by 13obo on Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

terminator
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by terminator » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:11 am

Strange that it is possible to purchase the Karl Gerat '40. Only 7 were produced. The first six had the nicknames "Adam" (later "Baldur"), "Eva" (later "Wotan"), "Thor", "Odin", "Loki", and "Ziu"; the seventh, the research and test weapon (Versuchs-Gerät), had no name. In PanzerCorps it was not possible to purchase.

If we could upgrade Gerät 040 -> Gerät 041 (later model, armed with a long (L/11.55) 540 millimetres (21 in) calibre barrel) :
Karl23.jpg
Karl23.jpg (22.6 KiB) Viewed 1958 times

Andy2012
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by Andy2012 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:16 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:Costs are another thing to be considered, for example you could buy 5x little 7.5cm leIG18's for the same cost as 1x big 17cm K18 !
This is the purchase screen for April 1945, I don't know if costs fluctuate from year to year?
That was my thinking in Blitzkrieg, the light arty is very powerful. Or was back then.
In Panzerkrieg, this does not work any more: The Red Army has arty everywhere, mostly medium range. The short range Wehrmacht arty always takes damage and needs to be repaired, which negates the cost advantage. Also, against tanks, it doesnt do a lot.
Put shortly, here in Panzerkrieg it is heavy arty, Nebelwerfers and heavy mortars all the way.
Looking back, I really wish I had had the funds to try out other units or fancier fighterbombers or heavy tanks.. oh well.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by PoorOldSpike » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:26 am

Heavy Infantry as artillery
Old hands will already know this of course, but I like to make my posts noob-friendly (heck I'm almost a noob myself,because I've only had OOB for less than 6 months!)
Heavy inf costs more than Regular inf (cost fluctuates according to nationality and time periods), but I love 'em (of all nations) for their heavy machineguns incredible hitting power in adjacent combat, PLUS we can switch them into Mortar Infantry as in the shots below to use them as miniature artillery pieces, so tactically they're a tremendously flexible unit, AND they shoot at any small (ie low level) aircraft that's attacking them..:)

As Mortar inf in Pic 1, they can lob their mortar rounds up to 2 hexes range at a respectable kill chance of '1'.
In Pic 2, still in Mortar mode, they can lob the rounds at adjacent enemy units and the enemy can't fire back with defensive fire on that turn!
Presumably the Mortar boys are lobbing from behind an abstracted wall or building etc unseen by the enemy..:)
(On the downside, Heavy inf are a bit slow moving on foot because of all that heavy equipment they lug around, so I usually buy transport for them unless there are good roads they can trudge down)

Image

Below: Brit mortar squad. I recognise the tripod, tube and mortar bombs they're carrying, but what are the striped poles being carried by the bloke in front?
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Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Andy2012
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Re: 21 cm Mrs 18 vs 17K 18

Post by Andy2012 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:52 pm

@Pooroldspike: Those striped poles are ranging equipment. You can pre-sight your mortars for specific landmarks and then hammer an incoming enemy attack later on.

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