Alternate history speculation & campaigns

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Re: Alternate history speculation & campaigns

Post by TripleCP » Tue May 15, 2018 8:58 am

@Igor1941: You've posted that before (twice in this thread and a few weeks ago in the one about OoB vs. historical realities). I do not know Russian-language historians well enough to know who is trustworthy and who is not, but it seems most Western military historians are sticking with the established 26-27 million figure (including approx. 11 million military dead - ~7.5 million killed or missing with another ~3.5 million POWs that were starved or worked to death). Can agree to diagree. ... rrison.pdf

@kondi754: I'll look up that Dnepr civilian thing some day. Maybe the full scope of Rzhev was kept hidden, but I remember Alexander Werth's Russia at War (written in the 1960s) covering some of the terrible battles that took place there. I recently bought the new third edition of When Titans Clashed by Glantz and House so I'm sure the short versions of all those forgotten battles will be there. Dave Glantz actually sent me some materials for a research paper I wrote on the 1944 Warsaw Rising almost ten years ago, and Jon House is good friends with one of my former professors so I've also talked with him on numerous occasions. While the forgotten battles are important to avoid putting the Red Army on too much of a pedestal, the biggest problem with the history of the Eastern Front is the over-reliance on German sources and corresponding hero-worship that's been built up around the Wehrmacht and even the Waffen-SS

I would need to look but I believe all the Katyn documents are posted on a Russian government website. My own interests are currently more focused on the Russian Revolution and Civil War given it is the centennial, though.

This thread has gone off the rails with some of this stuff, so I don't want to add any more. Regarding hypothetical campaign paths I will stick to my argument that the more interesting and more historically plausible outcome of a German decision to respect the non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union would be a prolonged war with the British Empire with greater emphasis on air and sea power (the Germans planned to demobilize much of their army and scale back tank production to concentrate on ships and aircraft once Barbarossa succeeded) rather than a Soviet drive to the West in 1942.
Last edited by TripleCP on Tue May 15, 2018 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alternate history speculation & campaigns

Post by Igor1941 » Tue May 15, 2018 9:04 am

kondi754 wrote:@TripleCP
Do you think that the information about, for example, the Soviets forced civilians from liberated Ukrainian villages to attack the German resistance points on the Dnepr river defence line in autumn and winter 1943/44 also for lies?
It is estimated that about 200,000 Ukrainian men have been killed or injured in these suicide attacks. These attacks were used to recognize the German defense and cause the Germans to use large amounts of ammunition, so that the losses among the soldiers were lower.
200,000 min. -750000 max. This was called the field military commissariats. They sent even sixteen-year-olds to the front ...
Нахрена обмундировывать и вооружать этих хохлов? Все они — предатели! Чем больше в Днепре потопим, тем меньше придется в Сибирь после войны ссылать - Why equip and arm these Ukrainians? All of them are traitors! The more we drown in the Dnieper, the less it will be necessary to exile to Siberia after the war ( Georgy Zhukov)

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Re: Alternate history speculation & campaigns

Post by terminator » Tue May 15, 2018 9:13 pm

Fall Kreml (Operation Kremlin in English) is now considered by many historians one of the most successful deception campaigns in history.
It was in the same class as the Allied Fortitude operations that were instigated to create confusion before the Normandy landings.
Planning for the German 1942 summer offensive began in December ’41, ironically coinciding with the Soviet counterattack against Heeresgruppe Mitte. Hitler decided that the most decisive blow would have to be in Southern Russia with the breadbasket of the Ukraine and oil of the Caucasus the primary targets. Hitler rightly decided that the capture of these areas would severely hamstring the Soviets while bringing vast new territories and resources under the Nazi’s control.
The operation in the south became Fall Blau (Operation Blue in English). With the heavy losses of the prior twelve months it was obvious that only one Heeresgruppe could mount offensive operations, with the others starved of replacements and standing at the defensive.
In preparation for Fall Blau, a deception plan for a second attack on Moscow was begun called Fall Kreml.
What if Fall Kreml was real, could the German’s have actually captured Moscow on the second attempt ? ... 84#p707534

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