The ss too weak

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stan23
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by stan23 » Sat May 12, 2018 10:29 pm

I agree the SS should be stronger than Wehrmacht units. For the most part that is accurate and historical.
I'm kinda surprised no one has made a updated 'units.csv' to correct this.

kondi754
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by kondi754 » Sun May 13, 2018 10:17 am

I agree with your voices but since Panzerkrieg only.
Earlier SS troops were like standard Wehrmacht motorised inf units and often even worse equipped with older equipment and without medium field artillery
They started to receive better equipment only before the Balkan campaign, and this equipment you talk about is in the SS divisions from the time of the Battle of Kursk

If it were to be in line with historical realities, then the development of Waffen SS in OoB should look like this:
1. 1 aux unit during Dunkerque sc
2. the opportunity to purchase the Waffen SS I specialization before Yugoslavia scn (instead of 6 CPs, there should be 9CPs immediately, to be able to buy 1 SS-Inf unit (+ truck) and 1 StuG)
3. Waffen SS II specialization available for purchase before Kharkov 43 scn (of course, much more CPs and much more RPs and RPs / turn)

As far as the actual achievements of the Waffen SS are concerned, the vast majority of them refer to the Eastern Front, where SS officers met with the rather primitive tactics of the Soviets, even at the end of the war.
The Waffen SS was initially criticized by the Wehrmacht for poor training and too high losses due to unnecessary fanaticism. This is especially true for the years 1939-40.
The first successes were the Balkan campaign of 1941.
Again, performing secondary functions during Barbarossa.
Excellent attitude of Leibstandarte (Rostov) and Totenkopf (Demyansk, Kholm) during difficult winter of 1941/42
Viking successes in the Caucasus in 1942 and on the Mius River in the summer of 1943
Fame gained at Kursk by the II SS Panzer Corps, and later over the Dnepr crises and in Ukraine in the winter of 1943/44
Defense of Narva in Estonia in the winter of 1944 by Scandinavian and West European SS volunteers.
The destruction of 2 Soviet armored corps near Warsaw in the summer of 1944 by Viking and Totenkopf,
then heavy fighting in Hungary in the winter and early spring of 1945. The first use of Panther G tanks and armoured carriers with infrared equipment!
Thanks to this, SS troops massacred several Soviet armored brigades.

On the western front the only achievement was the Wittmann's rally under Villers Bocage.
I do not consider the Market-Garden because it was more of Montgomery's defeat than the success of the Waffen SS.
The Waffen SS didn't play a major role also at the Battle of Bulge, where 5th Panzer Army of Wehrmacht under command of gen.von Manteuffel was the most successful

The best known crimes of Waffen SS:
1940 - cases of shooting and burning alive British prisoners in the vicinity of Dunkirk
1941 - murder of several hundred Jews in Ternopil in Ukraine by soldiers from the Wiking division
1941 - cooperation the Totenkopf and Reich divisions with the Einsatzgruppen in Belarus and Latvia during the killing of thousands of Jews
1943 - murdering all patients and personnel of soviet's military hospital in recaptured Kharkov
1944 - murdering over 600 men, women and children in the French Oradour-sur-Glane by Reich division
1944 - shooting several dozen Canadian prisoners by soldiers of Hilerjugend division in Normandy
1944/45 - civilian massacres in Italy and Greece
1944 - Malmedy massacre in Belgium (KG Peiper from Leibstandarte)

I have only written the crimes of the Waffen SS first line units, I do not include back, protective and anti-partisan units, such as those recruited from criminals (i.e. Dirlewanger brigade)
A separate topic is the crimes of Russian or Ukrainian SS men in the USSR and in Poland, or Bosnian and Croatian SS men in Yugoslavia.

Igor1941
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by Igor1941 » Sun May 13, 2018 12:32 pm

kondi754 wrote: A separate topic is the crimes of Russian or Ukrainian SS men in the USSR and in Poland, or Bosnian and Croatian SS men in Yugoslavia.

And the crimes of Serbs and Poles?

kondi754
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by kondi754 » Sun May 13, 2018 1:03 pm

Igor1941 wrote:
kondi754 wrote: A separate topic is the crimes of Russian or Ukrainian SS men in the USSR and in Poland, or Bosnian and Croatian SS men in Yugoslavia.

And the crimes of Serbs and Poles?
We're just talking about the Waffen SS.
But I wonder what crimes the Poles committed in your opinion?
Maybe you think about this situation after the war, when Polish guards recognized the hiding Dirlewanger, who personally shot several dozen Polish children during Warsaw'44 uprising and killed him with bare hands, smashing the motherf.cker to death ? :twisted:

Igor1941
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by Igor1941 » Sun May 13, 2018 1:18 pm

kondi754 wrote:
Igor1941 wrote:
kondi754 wrote: A separate topic is the crimes of Russian or Ukrainian SS men in the USSR and in Poland, or Bosnian and Croatian SS men in Yugoslavia.

And the crimes of Serbs and Poles?
We're just talking about the Waffen SS.
But I wonder what crimes the Poles committed in your opinion?
Maybe you think about this situation after the war, when Polish guards recognized the hiding Dirlewanger, who personally shot several dozen Polish children during Warsaw'44 uprising and killed him with bare hands, smashing the motherf.cker to death ? :twisted:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paw%C5%82okoma_massacre
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbrodnia_w_Gorajcu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zawadka_M ... _massacres
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbrodnia_w_Sahryniu
https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1 ... 0%B2%D1%96

Поляки в Вермахте
http://feldgrau.info/other/12062-polyaki-v-vermakhte

kondi754
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by kondi754 » Sun May 13, 2018 2:41 pm

Igor1941 wrote:
kondi754 wrote:
Igor1941 wrote:
And the crimes of Serbs and Poles?
We're just talking about the Waffen SS.
But I wonder what crimes the Poles committed in your opinion?
Maybe you think about this situation after the war, when Polish guards recognized the hiding Dirlewanger, who personally shot several dozen Polish children during Warsaw'44 uprising and killed him with bare hands, smashing the motherf.cker to death ? :twisted:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paw%C5%82okoma_massacre
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbrodnia_w_Gorajcu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zawadka_M ... _massacres
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbrodnia_w_Sahryniu
https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1 ... 0%B2%D1%96

Поляки в Вермахте
http://feldgrau.info/other/12062-polyaki-v-vermakhte

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres ... rn_Galicia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiog ... yn_tragedy
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum ... sclaimer=1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volhynian ... 943-07-11)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... n_Volhynia

Already enough or you want more?

Igor1941
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by Igor1941 » Sun May 13, 2018 2:57 pm

kondi754 wrote:
And the crimes of Serbs and Poles?
[/quote][/quote]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vistula

You want to say that the Poles are saints)))? No, not saints ... Ukrainians, also not saints

Here is an example of false propaganda ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianna_Doli%C5%84ska

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianna_Doli%C5%84ska

kondi754
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by kondi754 » Sun May 13, 2018 3:31 pm

No, there were no nations that would remain innocent during this war in Europe.
In addition, Axis (and Soviets) skilfully fueled national conflicts in Eastern Europe and the Balkans.

Igor1941
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by Igor1941 » Sun May 13, 2018 3:36 pm

kondi754 wrote:No, there were no nations that would remain innocent during this war in Europe.
In addition, Axis (and Soviets) skilfully fueled national conflicts in Eastern Europe and the Balkans.
I completely agree

CoolDTA
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by CoolDTA » Sun May 13, 2018 5:54 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:The famous SS Divs such as Leibstandarte, Das Reich, Totenkopf, Wiking etc were all very high quality which is why other wargames correctly assign them better combat stats than ordinary units.
Sigh. :( I say this for the third time: Some SS units were tougher than the ordinary units, but so were some regular Army units. Those tough (even elite) units were just the divisions mentioned in those quotes. Btw., if one scrolls down, there are also quotes of other kind... Anyway, this means it would be ahistorical to give all SS units such general bonuses, because there were many units which definitely were not elite (far from it).

In addition to that specialisation solution I suggested, maybe there could be one or two SS Panzer units in the same way as the Wiking you get if you have the Winter War DLC. These and only these units would then have better stats. Naturally there should be an upgrade or two for them just like the Wiking should have. Maybe a reward for the owners of Panzerkrieg for the upcoming Volkskrieg (or whatever): "You get a free LSSAH unit."

The other wargames of any value which assign them better combat stats than ordinary units do that only to these high quality SS units - not all SS units.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun May 13, 2018 9:21 pm

CoolDTA wrote:..it would be ahistorical to give all SS units such general bonuses, because there were many units which definitely were not elite (far from it)..
Yes, Adolf must have been nuts to dilute and degrade the SS by forming some SS units composed of non-Germans from other countries.
Nevertheless even though those units may (or may not) only have been "average", there were still the famous elite German SS units around which were definitely well above average, which meant the combat power of the SS as a whole averaged out to a level that was still higher than regular Wehrmacht units, and all wargames correctly reflect this..:)

PS- some non-German SS units put up a good show like when they helped stop the Russian offensive at the Battle of Narva in 1944-
WIKI- The Battle of Narva Bridgehead was the campaign that stalled the Soviet Estonian Operation in the surroundings of the town of Narva for six months. A number of volunteer Waffen SS units from Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands and Belgium fought on the German side.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_fo ... Bridgehead

Below: my model of a Pak 40 in action at Narva belonging to the 11th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division "Nordland", composed mostly of Norwegian and Danish volunteers-
Image

All is revealed- the background panorama picture slots under the base and the muzzle flash is a flat cutout-
Image

CoolDTA
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by CoolDTA » Mon May 14, 2018 10:14 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:Nevertheless even though those units may (or may not) only have been "average", there were still the famous elite German SS units around which were definitely well above average, which meant the combat power of the SS as a whole averaged out to a level that was still higher than regular Wehrmacht units, and all wargames correctly reflect this..:)
Many of them were below "average" and what you say above is just a myth. Considering the way the Nazis used the SS in their propaganda, no wonder the myth still lives. Those good and famous SS units all even had their own propaganda companies (not so with their Army equivalents). So no, all wargames do not incorrectly reflect this. Well, at least wargames worth anything.

Nice diorama. :)

Korvessa
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by Korvessa » Mon May 14, 2018 8:55 pm

The 6th SS Nord certainly stunk it up in Finland

(by that I mean they cut & run)
Last edited by Korvessa on Tue May 15, 2018 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon May 14, 2018 9:18 pm

CoolDTA wrote:
PoorOldSpike wrote:Many of them were below "average"..
Certainly some Waffen-SS units must have been better than others, so the best approach for scenario designers would be to reflect that fact, but in OOB all the SS units have exactly the same stats as ordinary infantry.
Even if we open the scens in the Editor, there seems no way we can create SS units with better combat stats.
However in Panzer Corps we can do that because the PC editor includes 'SE' units (Special Elite) for all nations that have better combat abilities, so we can put some into the stock PC scens and rename them 'Waffen-SS' if we like..:)

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Re: The ss too weak

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon May 14, 2018 9:47 pm

Korvessa wrote:The 6th SS Nord certainly stunk it up in Finland
What does "stunk it up" mean?
If you mean some Finnish SS troops were good, yes they were..:)

WIKI- "The Finnish Volunteer Battalion of the Waffen-SS...The battalion was praised by many Waffen-SS commanders, even Heinrich Himmler, for its combat performance. Himmler said "Where a Finnish SS-man stood, the enemy was always defeated."
Neither the unit nor any of its members were ever accused of any war crimes"

Image

kondi754
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by kondi754 » Mon May 14, 2018 10:38 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Korvessa wrote:The 6th SS Nord certainly stunk it up in Finland
What does "stunk it up" mean?
If you mean some Finnish SS troops were good, yes they were..:)

WIKI- "The Finnish Volunteer Battalion of the Waffen-SS...The battalion was praised by many Waffen-SS commanders, even Heinrich Himmler, for its combat performance. Himmler said "Where a Finnish SS-man stood, the enemy was always defeated."
Neither the unit nor any of its members were ever accused of any war crimes"
Well, if Himmler said it, it really means something :?
I wonder when will you start to quote the Fuhrer?

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Re: The ss too weak

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon May 14, 2018 11:29 pm

"We gained 22,000 square miles of territory. Just enough to bury our dead"
-Soviet General after attacking Finland, 1940

"Finland alone- in danger of death, superb, sublime Finland - shows what free men can do."
-Winston Churchill, 1939

Finnish submachinegunner-
Image

Korvessa
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Re: The ss too weak

Post by Korvessa » Tue May 15, 2018 2:59 am

I am familiar with the Finnish battalion of the Wiking Division (I have a book called Dritte Nordland).
I am talking about the poor performance of the 6th SS in Operation Arctic Fox

During the spring 1941, two new Standarten (Regiments) arrived: the 6th and 7th. After a short time, the 6th SS, with large elements from the 9th SS, moved into positions at Salla in Northern-Finland. General von Falkenhorst did, however, not trust their fighting ability very much, because even If the formations were well equipped, the men were poorly trained. The two latter regiments crossed the Finnish/Norwegian border, and were ready at Salla the 22nd June, 1941.
As the attack on Soviet came, the divisions, now usually called "Brigades", were thrown into the battle at Markajärvi-Salla. They suffered great losses, and were an expected disappointment to the German commanders: Falkenhorst and Buschenhagen. The SS forces lost 700 men the first two days in combat with strong Russian forces (300 KIA and 400 WIA

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Re: The ss too weak

Post by Korvessa » Tue May 15, 2018 3:08 am

Sorry - forgot to list the web page: http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations ... ision-nord

Here's another:
In July 1941 the division took part in Operation Silberfuchs with the German 169th Division and the Finnish 6th Division. Due to lack of training the soldiers were routed in the first attack against the Soviet forces at Salla.
http://www.2kompanie.org/nord-history.html

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Re: The ss too weak

Post by TripleCP » Tue May 15, 2018 5:19 am

One of the best things about the system in OoB is that it leaves things like this up to the player. As kondi754 and others have stated, the Waffen-SS formations units of the early war period were not considered elite troops. That said, if the player wants to expand and give their Waffen SS units priority on elite reinforcements, weapons upgrades, etc. there is nothing to stop them from doing that. There were plenty of awful SS formations, such as those formed from camp guards or the various anti-partisan detachments (basically death squads).
https://www.facebook.com/RussianFront75/

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