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The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:54 am
by cutydt02
I see the ss can change the situation in most scenarios. Especially in some short ones. Historically the ss divisions have more soldiers and tanks then they can hit very hard and stand longer. But in oob, they cant receive grand bonus then actually they are so weak even have same exp with wehrmacht.... thats worse when we even cant put any generals on them
To devs: may be decrease ss number unit and increase their strength (like overstrength in panzer corps) is a cool way?

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:38 pm
by PoorOldSpike
cutydt02 wrote:I see the ss can change the situation in most scenarios...
Please remind me which OOB scens have got Waffen-SS in them?

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:55 pm
by 13obo
I think with that first sentence, the OP meant real world historical scenarios. The sentence was the introduction to his/her argument that SS should be stronger than regular units in-game, but turn out to be weaker.

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:19 pm
by PoorOldSpike
I don't understand. Which OOB scens have got Waffen-SS units in them?

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:28 pm
by 13obo
Campaign ones.

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:40 pm
by PoorOldSpike
13obo wrote:Campaign ones.
In that case he's right, Waffen-SS units should be much tougher than Wehrmacht infantry..:)
BTW, there are no Waffen-SS units in the Editor, it's certainly a glaring omission.

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 4:38 pm
by Erik2
Most every Wehrmacht land unit has its Waffen SS equivalent.
You need to select the Waffen SS faction in the editor.
The units have the same stats as the Wehrmacht units.
This is fine by me. You can always give the SS units more experience in a scenario to give them some edge if you want.

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 6:06 pm
by PoorOldSpike
Erik2 wrote:Most every Wehrmacht land unit has its Waffen SS equivalent.
You need to select the Waffen SS faction in the editor.
The units have the same stats as the Wehrmacht units.
This is fine by me. You can always give the SS units more experience in a scenario to give them some edge if you want.
Thanks, so you're saying we have to open up a scenario in the editor and tweak it to give the SS more experience to make them historically accurate if we want. Why didn't the scenario designers do that when they were creating the scens instead of leaving it up to us?

PS- the infantry in OOB scens are all called "German infantry", I've never seen any called "SS", so how do we know which ones are supposed to be SS anyway?

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 6:24 pm
by cutydt02
Yes, in blitzkrieg and panzerkrieg camp (may be future dlcs). I just want something to make them special. Its so sad that i can have instant 2-star tiger for wehrmacht while the ss needs much longer time, right?

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 6:43 pm
by CoolDTA
PoorOldSpike wrote:Thanks, so you're saying we have to open up a scenario in the editor and tweak it to give the SS more experience to make them historically accurate if we want. Why didn't the scenario designers do that when they were creating the scens instead of leaving it up to us?
Historically accurate how? Yes, there were SS divisions that could be called elite but then again there were divisions that were anything but. The problem is imo that the specializations do not apply to SS. There could also be some specs for SS only. For instance a spec giving them +2 att and -1 def (to simulate their often reckless tactics).
PoorOldSpike wrote:PS- the infantry in OOB scens are all called "German infantry", I've never seen any called "SS", so how do we know which ones are supposed to be SS anyway?
They have the skull and bones symbol instead of the iron cross.

Image

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 6:50 pm
by GabeKnight
PoorOldSpike wrote:Why didn't the scenario designers do that when they were creating the scens instead of leaving it up to us?
I think terminator made some special Waffen-SS units for his "Forgotten Units" mod

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:05 pm
by PoorOldSpike
CoolDTA wrote:
PoorOldSpike wrote:..the infantry in OOB scens are all called "German infantry", I've never seen any called "SS", so how do we know which ones are supposed to be SS anyway?
They have the skull and bones symbol instead of the iron cross.

Image
What scen is that?
I've never seen any skulls/crossbones in any stock vanilla OOB scens I've played.
Which specific scens have got SS in them so I can go doublecheck?

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:19 pm
by CoolDTA
That's Kursk. The Waffen SS is available in all campaign scenarios of Panzerkrieg and starting from Greece in Blitzkrieg if the appropriate specialization is bought.

From what you have told I assume there is no SS available in single scenarios, correct?

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:23 pm
by PoorOldSpike
CoolDTA wrote:..From what you have told I assume there is no SS available in single scenarios, correct?
Correct, there's no SS in the vanilla standalone scens.
The only apparent workaround is if we open each scen in the Editor (big chore) to slap skull/crossbones icons on standard infantry units and give them extra experience stars and a Specialisation.
But the ideal solution would have been for the developers to have created an SS faction right from the start with their own better combat statistics, just like they created other elite units with better stats like paras, commandos, Rangers, SAS etc.
Hey devs don't you like the SS?..;)

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:50 pm
by Shards
They've literally got their own faction already?

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:53 am
by GabeKnight
CoolDTA wrote:There could also be some specs for SS only. For instance a spec giving them +2 att and -1 def (to simulate their often reckless tactics)
I like this idea. The Waffen-SS spec. system's practically unused the way it is now. Even in most of the available custom sceanarios/campaigns around, the Waffen-SS faction's rarely given any spec. points at all.

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:22 pm
by PoorOldSpike
Shards wrote:They've literally got their own faction already?
Yes the SS have, but they're still exactly the same as ordinary German infantry and that's what Cuty was rightfully complaining about in his starter post.
Look, the one on the left is ordinary infantry, and the one on the right is SS.
Notice both types have got exactly the same stats and both are called 'German infantry', and even their uniforms are the same!
The only thing different about the SS unit is that it's got a skull/crossbones icon (arrowed), and I think there's also an SS-runes alternative mod icon if anybody wants it, but neither icon has any effect on gameplay because they're just purely cosmetic.
Historically SS units were tougher than ordinary units, so although we love the devs to bits (bless their little cotton socks), they should really have upped the SS stats at the design stage, for example by making their mech and soft attack strengths around 10 and 17 respectively.

Image

I turned 70 years of age the other day for my sins, and In every other wargame I've ever seen in a long wargaming career, SS units are correctly tougher than ordinary infantry, but it's a glaring omission in OOB that could perhaps be fixed with a small patch or something?

Image
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php? ... orum&f=134

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:19 pm
by CoolDTA
PoorOldSpike wrote:Historically SS units were tougher than ordinary units, so although we love the devs to bits (bless their little cotton socks), they should really have upped the SS stats at the design stage, for example by making their mech and soft attack strengths around 10 and 17 respectively.
This is really not true. Some SS units were tougher than the ordinary units, but so were some regular Army units. The quality of the SS units varied a lot and that's why it would be ahistorical to give them such general bonuses. The problem in the game is they don't get the same bonuses the other units get and that imo should be changed.
PoorOldSpike wrote:But the ideal solution would have been for the developers to have created an SS faction right from the start with their own better combat statistics, just like they created other elite units with better stats like paras, commandos, Rangers, SAS etc.
All of those are special units with special training - SS is not. And some combat stats of those units are actually low because of their combat role and equipment.

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 6:30 pm
by jeff00t
I agree, in panzerkrieg, the SS faction is crapy: in the first scenarios, we have only weak infantery and after, we can recruit some panzer but no difference with the normal... so bad...

Re: The ss too weak

Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 8:03 pm
by PoorOldSpike
CoolDTA wrote:..The quality of the SS units varied a lot and that's why it would be ahistorical to give them such general bonuses..
The famous SS Divs such as Leibstandarte, Das Reich, Totenkopf, Wiking etc were all very high quality which is why other wargames correctly assign them better combat stats than ordinary units.
Let me toss the following quotes into the playpen from non-SS officers (my underlining)-

"I can assure you that the Leibstandarte enjoys an outstanding reputation, not
only with its own superiors but with its Army comrades also. Every division
wishes it had the Leibstandarte as its neighbour
. Its inner discipline, cool
daredevilry, cheerful enterprise, unshakeable fortitude even when things
become difficult or serious, exemplary toughness and its camaraderie, all of
these are outstanding and cannot be surpassed."
- General Eberhard Von Mackensen.

"Today the SS-Panzergrenadier Division Wiking leaves the units attached to my
Panzerkorps (to switch to the East Caucasus). From the very first day of its
attachment up on the last, the division had been admirably succesful in
bold attacks and determined defence in continual weeks-long battles
under
unfavourable weather conditions and against an enemy always numerically
superior. It has proved itself to have an outstanding fighting spirit, which
has caused great damage to the enemy
. Thanks to the excellent steadfastness
of the Division, the enemy has been prevented from achieving his goal of
breakthrough and envelopment. So, today, I watch the brave men of the Wiking
Division leave my forces with a heavy heart. My thanks and full recognition
go equally to its officers and men. My best wishes go with the division on
its way to new battles and new successes."
- General Friedrich Kirchner

"I have encountered the SS divisions Leibstandarte
and Das Reich in battle and later, as General-Inspector of the Panzer
Troops, have inspected the Waffen-SS Divisions many times. They always
distinguished themselves through their self-discipline, comradeship and good
soldierly behaviour in battle.
They fought shoulder to shoulder with the
Army Panzer Divisions and became, the more so the longer the war lasted,
'one of us'."
- General Heinz Guderian

"In the few past days the Korps has recorded two great successes. First, the
defensive victory by the SS-Panzergrenadier Division Wiking, which after the
engagement by the Tiger detachment resulted in the destruction of 84 enemy
tanks. Second, the daring advance across the Merla by 3rd SS-Panzergrenadier
Division Totenkopf. My thanks and appreciation to the command and to the
troops."
- General Otto Wohler [Headquarters of the 8th Army, 20 August 1943]

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