A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Discuss

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Andy2012
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Andy2012 » Thu May 24, 2018 11:55 am

Shards wrote:AgentTBC has summed up my feelings exactly here :)

In Alam el Haifa, I had one Lancia in AT mode in the North and one in AA mode in the south, very useful bit of kit!
Yeah, I would keep them around for AA and AT for my Italian core most definitely. But the Stug takes less damage from arty and from counterattack when used to finish off weakened enemy armour. Also good against infantry. And there's the Stug love, of course. :D

Anyways, is there any hope that you guys add a quick 'count core force' button or command into the game? I know, I asked already, but maybe this got buried. I find it pretty tedious to go back into the game and count manually or take notes. This would also be good for walkthroughs and beta testing - just how much money you got in the bank before and after a mission, what you bought and core composition in general. Kind of like a numbers tool. Sorry, cant program myself. Just thought this would be neat. Maybe one of the modding experts or Mojko has an idea. :D

cutydt02
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by cutydt02 » Thu May 24, 2018 12:23 pm

I thought italian got the artillery and infantry then germany got armory. It worked in 3-4 early scenarios but soon i realised how rich the italy because they just need to repair cheap one. Just one point repaired of veteran panzer 4 f2 can match 7-8 point repaired of regular infantry.
And the italy mobile at is good enough but too paper, 25pdr will love them. Especially while i dont have much to care about italy cp.
From kasserin till end, not as good as other scens and made me regret not trained more veteran infantry

CoolDTA
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by CoolDTA » Thu May 24, 2018 6:17 pm

Okay, Buq Buq et al has been taken now. This scenario is good old Blitzkrieg again. Like Andy noted, there is a certain lack of RPs. Which is good. :-) So, instead of upgrading my vetaran tanks which is what I almost always do, I decided to buy new ones instead. This also makes the tank core more historical having older and newer models instead of only the best. Now I have two each of Pz IIIJ, Pz IVF1 and Pz IVF2 (new). I also have had from the beginning one Italian Carro Armato M13/40 to represent Ariete Armoured Division. It is not too bad with two stars. In addition I bought several Italian infantries and one Italian 149 mm arty. Full compliment of Luftwaffe (3 x Fw 190, 4 x Ju 87D) and Regia Aeronautica (2 x Macchi C.202, 1 x Breda Ba.65) was deployed.

I used two prongs with the northern one being somewhat stronger. Although there are quite a lot of enemy units, they were surprisingly easily swept away. An enemy attack to my rear forced me to send there an ad hoc battle group. Nice touch that one. There a large concentration of enemy units in the middle between the prongs. Do not bother to attack them but instead encircle the lot. This makes it easy to reach the objectives at the eastern edge of the map. At that moment I had so much time left that I decided to do it Gabe's Way and I cleaned the map. 8)

I liked the big map, the number of units involved and the surprise attack, but maybe the scenario is a bit easy. Probably not at higher difficulty levels I'm sure.

GabeKnight
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by GabeKnight » Thu May 24, 2018 8:00 pm

:D
...and if you picked the "Forced Labor" spec., you're gonna get rich! :wink:
There's much RPs to be earned with that spec. in this DLC. You can encircle quite often. Supply hexes are often scarce.

CoolDTA
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by CoolDTA » Fri May 25, 2018 2:26 pm

No, I don't have it. :( I never take it because imo its benefits are so very rare. But as always you are right: in this DLC it probably is a good choice. Thanks for pointing that out! :)

GabeKnight
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by GabeKnight » Fri May 25, 2018 4:04 pm

The below infographic was posted on some Slitherine site when Sandstorm was released and I've never seen it since. A pity, it's well made.

Just a reminder to everyone: If you don't RETREAT at the Crusader mission, you'll never get to play the Gazala scenario !!! :mrgreen:
(It pays out to have the "autosave at every turn" enabled. That way you can easily roll back and replay the different branches of this campaign)
Order-of-battle_SandStorm_infographic.jpg
Order-of-battle_SandStorm_infographic.jpg (903.02 KiB) Viewed 1447 times

Andy2012
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Andy2012 » Fri May 25, 2018 4:14 pm

Alright, Buq Buq is mine and I can see a path to Egypt. Might have to take a detour over Malta, typical German tourist that I am.
'Look at all zis dezert. Vhere is the tour headed?" :mrgreen:
22 turns, no losses except one Italian recon plane.

As I said above, I upgraded to all Pz IV F2 (3 tanks), bought 2 italian tanks, upgraded 1 Italian heavy arty and during the mission upgraded my two 88 AT to Stugs. Bought a third Stuka.

Overall, this is pretty straightforward.
1. Deploy the Wehrmacht on the coastal road, mostly. Push over Buq Buq to Sidi Barrani.
2. Deploy Italians on the inland road, mostly. Push over the three secondary cities, then north toward the final coastal city. In both cases, try a balanced force.
3. Stukas should concentrate on the coast, air defenses are weakish. Fighters and recon fly ahead and take out fighers and bombers before they get to you.
3. Inland road - lead with Italian tanks and arty and infantry. Ground units do the damage against trucks and infantry and thus give you the commander.
4. Ignore the large inland force for now, let your Wehrmacht dig in around Buq Buq and Sidi Barrani. But be careful not to get flanked from the center.
5. Hit the inland road targets with your (mostly) Italian force, seize the silver flag towns.
6. Turn north toward the final coastal city. You can thus ignore the massive British force in the middle.

If you feel like it, you can do nasty stuff with 'forced labor' as a spec - surround the big British force in the middle and hit them for credits.
Anything I missed? To Malta it is then.

CoolDTA
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by CoolDTA » Sat May 26, 2018 11:09 am

Unternehmen Herkules/Operazione C3

I think this is mostly decided how well you do with your aux Fallschirmjägers in the beginning. After they have done their duty and your core units arrive, it is mostly a mopping up operation. So: use two FJ units per airfield. Take the AF and the nearby supply hex. If you really want to, you can expand your perimeter, but be extra careful, because then the Brits are likely to take the AF/supply source back. After a couple of turns you will get most of your airforce and two new core FJs. I deployed three fighters and five bombers. Let the bombers take out two coastal guns and your ground units can enter the fray.

I suggest using the extra FJs to attack the primary of Rabat (no, not the capital city of Morocco :wink: ) in the middle. It is rather lightly defended and gives 40 supply. Use a bomber or two to help. This enables you to deploy ground units in the middle also in addition to whatever you use for amphibious attack. After that it should be smooth sailing. The only good defenses are around Valletta. In the naval battle you should easily prevail because of your superior numbers and again bombers can assist.

I don't understand why the scenario is so long (45 turns). Was it much more difficult in beta? Anyway, because of that I again did the Gabe imitation and cleaned the map. 8)

I think the deployment hexes of the Italian naval reinforcements should be for instance in the western edge of the map. Now the same thing happened to me as to Mojko and they spawned on top of the British group. Makes a rather easy naval battle even easier.

@Gabe: thanks for reposting that campaign path! :) I always looked too many wrong threads searching for it. :oops:

Andy2012
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Andy2012 » Sat May 26, 2018 11:34 am

CoolDTA wrote:Unternehmen Herkules/Operazione C3

I think this is mostly decided how well you do with your aux Fallschirmjägers in the beginning. After they have done their duty and your core units arrive, it is mostly a mopping up operation. So: use two FJ units per airfield. Take the AF and the nearby supply hex. If you really want to, you can expand your perimeter, but be extra careful, because then the Brits are likely to take the AF/supply source back. After a couple of turns you will get most of your airforce and two new core FJs. I deployed three fighters and five bombers. Let the bombers take out two coastal guns and your ground units can enter the fray.
Yes, exactly my approach. Immediately move two paras to each airfield and land one the next turn on the airfield, one on the supply point. (Quicksave and quickload until they land perfectly, if you feel like doing that.) Dig in, wait. Then, do what CoolDTA wrote.
CoolDTA wrote: I don't understand why the scenario is so long (45 turns). Was it much more difficult in beta? Anyway, because of that I again did the Gabe imitation and cleaned the map. 8)
Well, if you dont get it perfectly right with the paradrops, this takes a lot longer. If you do it right, you dont need all these turns. But this is mostly about giving less experienced players a chance to finish this.

CoolDTA
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by CoolDTA » Sat May 26, 2018 11:50 am

Andy2012 wrote:
Well, if you dont get it perfectly right with the paradrops, this takes a lot longer. If you do it right, you dont need all these turns. But this is mostly about giving less experienced players a chance to finish this.
Ah, okay, and considering the difficulties some ppl have had with Sandstorm, it is definitely a good thing to let them enjoy this excellent DLC also. :) I would also expect the amount of turns being useful at higher difficulties as well.

Andy2012
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Andy2012 » Sat May 26, 2018 12:17 pm

Okay, walkthrough is on hold until this is fixed:
viewtopic.php?f=372&t=85633
But feel free to post stuff; I am also happy to discuss strategy and unit choice...

Andy2012
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Andy2012 » Sat May 26, 2018 1:48 pm

Andy2012 wrote:Okay, walkthrough is on hold until this is fixed:
viewtopic.php?f=372&t=85633
But feel free to post stuff; I am also happy to discuss strategy and unit choice...
....aaaannd we're back. Thanks, zakblood. :D

Erik2
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Erik2 » Sat May 26, 2018 2:11 pm

Just a little correction. Herkules and Operazione C3 are two different invasion plans, German and Italian.
Herkules is used in this campaign.
It would be nice to be able to choose between these...

CoolDTA
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by CoolDTA » Sat May 26, 2018 3:15 pm

True, the Italians did have an earlier plan of their own (Operazione C3), but when the Germans jumped in and chose to call it Unternehmen Herkules, the Italians kept the old codename for the joint effort. Or maybe you have something more..? :?:

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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Erik2 » Sat May 26, 2018 3:52 pm

Of course, I have this (scenario based on the original Italian plan):
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 64&t=85629

CoolDTA
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by CoolDTA » Sat May 26, 2018 4:05 pm

Yes, I know you have that and all those superb scenarios. :-)

Unfortunately I only have this and I'm not the one on the left: :cry:

Image

Andy2012
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Andy2012 » Sat May 26, 2018 4:26 pm

Alright, Malta is mine. 36 turns, medium diff, no losses, all primary and secondary goals. On to Alam Halfa it is, then.

I think since CoolDTA already told you the gist of this, I dont need to repeat this so much.

1. Drop two paras per airfield, secure airfield and supply point. Hold, dig in.
2. Use Stukas and fighters to gain air superiority and take out 2 coastal batteries in the southeast. Keep your paras dug in.
3. Land your force from the southeast. This may take a few turns, but you are not in a rush.
4. After (!!!) your paras are relieved, push for the target cities. St Paul comes last.
5. Beware of the arty support in the north and fighter attacks on your supply ships from the east.
6. For the naval battle, use the general naval battle rules (well, they work for me): torpedoes against capital ships, big guns against DDs, focus fire instead of damaging several enemy vessels.

Summed up, if you do the para drop just right, you are basically set. Just dont get too cocky. :wink:

(On a side note, I had a ton of stability issues in this mission. And just in this mission. Anybody else?)

Andy2012
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by Andy2012 » Sat May 26, 2018 4:27 pm

Erik2 wrote:Of course, I have this (scenario based on the original Italian plan):
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 64&t=85629
Stop tormenting us. All this free fun... :wink: :mrgreen:

GabeKnight
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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by GabeKnight » Sat May 26, 2018 4:32 pm

Andy2012 wrote: Well, if you dont get it perfectly right with the paradrops, this takes a lot longer. If you do it right, you dont need all these turns. But this is mostly about giving less experienced players a chance to finish this.
Yep. I did a test once to "simulate" an inexperienced player ( :wink: ) with some rookie mistakes during the landings of the paras and not securing the supply hexes right. Cost me an airfield and two para units. Didn't get no core paras as reward either. Then the deployed planes couldn't land right, had to take losses due to fuel shortage. The finally landed planes were under constant bombardment of the enemy strat. bombers. No reinforcements in sight... and so on... THEN those extra turns are needed - if one chooses not to restart the scenario.

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Re: A long beach. With trenches. Sandstorm - Review and Disc

Post by CoolDTA » Sat May 26, 2018 5:52 pm

GabeKnight wrote: [Yep. I did a test once to "simulate" an inexperienced player ( :wink: ) with some rookie mistakes during the landings of the paras and not securing the supply hexes right.
Can easily see that happen and from then on it is a snowball effect like you eloquently described. Those new players who come from PzC can use the best OoB-tip there is: It is not Panzer Corps. Helped me a lot. :D
Andy2012 wrote:
(On a side note, I had a ton of stability issues in this mission. And just in this mission. Anybody else?)
No such problems. Glad you got it solved. :) I also think a corrupted save was the cause.

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