Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

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PoorOldSpike
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Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:39 am

Newcomers might not be aware of exactly which SPAT units can provide AT backup (I sometimes forget myself), so these tests will help us remember..:)

These 3 pics illustrate the tactic; in the top one a T-34 has caught an infantry unit in the open and has blasted 5 strength points off it.

In the second pic a Marder SPAT is backing up the infantry, and when the T-34 clobbers the infantry, the Marder fires in support and knocks 2 strength points off the T-34.

In pic 3 the infantry retreats. The Marder can now be moved into a new position to support the infantry again, or even better a fresh infantry can be brought up.
The pics illustrate how SPAT units in the backup role suffer no losses whatever and are completely immune which makes them very powerful units to have.
(NOTE- they backup not just infantry, but everything else too)

Image
Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:52 am

There are 18 German SPAT units in the game and I tested every one to confirm they provide AT support (I'll test the other nationalities later in this sensational thread), below is a screenshot of the 18 Germans on test including several other types for good measure (game version 7.1.6)

Image

Here's the list, all 18 provide AT support including (surprisingly) the Wirbelwind and Ostwind AA units.

Panzerjager 1
Marder I / II / III
Stug III F / F8 / G
Sturer Emil
Nashorn
Ferdinand
Elefant
Jagdpanzer IV 48
Jagdpanzer IV/70
Jagdpanzer 38 Hetzer
Jagdpanther
Jagdtiger
Wirbelwind
Ostwind

NOTE-
The following four Stug marks do NOT provide AT support (confirmed by tests) because they're artillery units.
Stug III B / D / E / H

PS- If I've overlooked anything by all means let me have your corrections and death threats etc
Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:00 am

BELOW- I also ran tests to see if structures can get AT support and the answer is yes, they all do, not all are shown in this shot-

Image

Confirmed: all these get AT support-
Train
Armoured train
Bunker
Concrete bunker
MG Foxhole
Fortress gun
Coastal gun
Hangar
Airstrip (tented graphic)
Oil pump
Radar
Fuel depot
Construction group bulldozer
Horse transport

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:06 am

I discovered this by accident- The T-34 can't see the MG foxhole even though it's adjacent to it, so it lunges forward to attack the Marder, but surprise surprise, the foxhole appears when the T-34 tries to enter its hex, and the SPAT fires to support it, stripping a hefty 4 strength points from the T-34. The tactic can therefore be used to lure an enemy tank forward making it "trip over" invisible foxholes..:)

Image
Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:20 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:17 am

BTW- When enemy tanks intend adjacent to attack a unit as in the pic on the left, the combat forecast is a whopping 4-1 in favour of the tank, BUT when it moves into the hex the readout changes to 4-4 because it can now see the SPAT that's supporting the infantry.
The tank might now get cold feet and decide not to go ahead with the attack and will therefore have wasted its move for that turn hehe..

Image

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by GabeKnight » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:59 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:52 am
Here's the list, all 18 provide AT support including (surprisingly) the Wirbelwind and Ostwind AA units.
Yeah, all units within the "anit-tank" class (as seen in the purchase screen) provide AT support to all friendly units and structures (even mines! - if not neutral :wink: ).
You really don't need to test this with all units and and all factions IMO. :)
PoorOldSpike wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:06 am
I discovered this by accident- The T-34 can't see the MG foxhole even though it's adjacent to it, so it lunges forward to attack the Marder, but surprise surprise, the foxhole appears when the T-34 tries to enter its hex, and the SPAT fires to support it, stripping a hefty 4 strength points from the T-34. The tactic can therefore be used to lure an enemy tank forward making it "trip over" invisible foxholes..:)
It's one of the best defensive tactics, sure. You can easily generate such "ambush" like traps with all camouflaged units that are basically "invisible" to all mechanised units (except recon). Like commandos or the Ital. Saharianna or such.
Works wonders if the backing up unit has weak defense stats. Then the AI's going to attack the AT unit and... BAM!, insta-death :lol:

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by terminator » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:20 am

GabeKnight wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:59 am
PoorOldSpike wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:52 am
Here's the list, all 18 provide AT support including (surprisingly) the Wirbelwind and Ostwind AA units.
Yeah, all units within the "anit-tank" class (as seen in the purchase screen) provide AT support to all friendly units and structures (even mines! - if not neutral :wink: ).
You really don't need to test this with all units and and all factions IMO. :)
Not neutral mines ? I suppose it was in Custom Campaigns not in Official Campaigns ?
AT support to (not neutral) mines :shock:
This curiosity comforts me in my opinion that mines should always be neutral :!:

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by GabeKnight » Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:58 am

terminator wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:20 am
Not neutral mines ? I suppose it was in Custom Campaigns not in Official Campaigns ?
AT support to (not neutral) mines :shock:
Yes, Erik's campaigns.
terminator wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:20 am
This curiosity comforts me in my opinion that mines should always be neutral :!:
Definitely. Rather than changing the mine's ownership, I would use the "reveal hidden units" trigger for the AI at turn start, if applicable.

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by CoolDTA » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:47 am

Spike's OoB 101 -courses are very useful for all new players. :)

I don't think I've ever seen insta-deaths in OoB except when the AI decides to test what is shown above. :twisted:

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by PoorOldSpike » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:09 am

GabeKnight wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:59 am
Yeah, all units within the "anit-tank" class (as seen in the purchase screen) provide AT support to all friendly units and structures (even mines! - if not neutral :wink: ).
You really don't need to test this with all units and and all factions IMO. :)
I know, my tests are simply another way of examining units apart from Mojko's excellent Nav Tool and the ingame screens etc..:)
Also, my "hands on" tests are bang up to the minute with the latest vanilla OOB version (currently 7.1.6), it's like if you import a mail order Russian or Thai bride, you really have to get your hands on her to give her a good checking out to see if she performs as expected.

Below: I mentioned earlier that the four artillery-class Stug III models B / D/ E / H will NOT give AT backup because they're classed as artillery, so I ran this latest test to confirm it.
In the left pic the Stug III D is positioned behind the Fuel depot and I've lowered its gun into direct fire mode.
But in pic 2 when the T-34 attacks it does NOT give AT support and the T-34 demolishes the depot with its second shot.
The same applies to the other 3 Stug models too, I lowered their guns but they didn't fire in support and just sat there munching popcorn presumably because historically the B/ D/ E/ H's had a mainly artillery role.
The moral therefore is that if we're given Stugs in a scenario or campaign or buy them ourselves, we should double check what model they are and use them tactically to suit.
(the 3 AT-class models that DO give AT support are- Stug III F/ F8/ G)

Image

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by PoorOldSpike » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:55 am

Regarding mines, I ran this test 5 minutes ago which shows that AT units do NOT support mines.
My German engineers have just laid the minefield and are getting the hell out of there as the T-34 comes trundling up and tries to enter the mines, but loses a strength point for its trouble.
The Stug IIIG in the pic is one of the AT-class Stugs but doesn't fire to support the mines.
Maybe I should try setting up the test in other ways, I'm not a mine expert so let me know.

Image

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by terminator » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:01 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:55 am
Regarding mines, I ran this test 5 minutes ago which shows that AT units do NOT support mines.
Yes, it seems that AT does not support the mines even those of the same side (not neutral) :

- AT supports Infantry :

Screenshot 1465.jpg
Screenshot 1465.jpg (173.01 KiB) Viewed 1699 times

- AT does NOT support Mines of the same side (not neutral):

Screenshot 1466.jpg
Screenshot 1466.jpg (175.81 KiB) Viewed 1699 times

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by GabeKnight » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:35 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:09 am
I know, my tests are simply another way of examining units apart from Mojko's excellent Nav Tool and the ingame screens etc..:)
Also, my "hands on" tests are bang up to the minute with the latest vanilla OOB version (currently 7.1.6), it's like if you import a mail order Russian or Thai bride, you really have to get your hands on her to give her a good checking out to see if she performs as expected.
:lol:
If you don't mind doing the work, then please, be my guest :)
There's no better way of finding bugs, issues or some "weird" in-game mechanics. :wink:
terminator wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:01 am
PoorOldSpike wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:55 am
Regarding mines, I ran this test 5 minutes ago which shows that AT units do NOT support mines.
Yes, it seems that AT does not support the mines even those of the same side (not neutral) :
Yeah, you're both right, sorry. I stand corrected. :shock: :oops:

Either this has been changed at some point or my memory's playing tricks on me. Because I was quite sure that I lost a unit (or got badly damaged) by this kind of "ambush": running into a mine with an enemy AT unit sitting behind it. And I think that was the event that actually had me change my mind about mines belonging to factions. I mean, logically it would make sense that a nation laying the mines does know about them and does not run into their own mines, right?

But during play, this is not a good idea. Minefields should definitely stay neutral.

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by PoorOldSpike » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:03 pm

GabeKnight wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:35 am
[re mines not being supported by AT]- Either this has been changed at some point or my memory's playing tricks on me. Because I was quite sure that I lost a unit (or got badly damaged) by this kind of "ambush": running into a mine with an enemy AT unit sitting behind it..
It might be that an earlier version glitched and produced that result.
Games are like people and can go bananas from time to time, in fact I don't think I've ever seen a game that's 100% bug/glitch free, how about it Norman?

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by terminator » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:18 am

GabeKnight wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:35 am
terminator wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:01 am
PoorOldSpike wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:55 am
Regarding mines, I ran this test 5 minutes ago which shows that AT units do NOT support mines.
Yes, it seems that AT does not support the mines even those of the same side (not neutral) :
Yeah, you're both right, sorry. I stand corrected. :shock: :oops:

Either this has been changed at some point or my memory's playing tricks on me. Because I was quite sure that I lost a unit (or got badly damaged) by this kind of "ambush": running into a mine with an enemy AT unit sitting behind it.
Was it against "German Mines", maybe a Specialization bug ?

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by PoorOldSpike » Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:19 am

terminator wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:18 am
Was it against "German Mines", maybe a Specialization bug ?
Regarding my own test, here's the pic again, my German engineers have just laid the mines and are skedaddling, so they're definitely German mines even though they carry a white 'neutral' icon, and in comes the T-34 and treads on them.
BTW I use NO specialisations or mods of any sort in my tests, they're pure vanilla.
PS- I've been meaning to ask a stupid question- how do we lay mines in the editor so that they're already in place when the game starts?

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by terminator » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:11 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:19 am
PS- I've been meaning to ask a stupid question- how do we lay mines in the editor so that they're already in place when the game starts?
Where are the mines ? :arrow: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... ilit=mines

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by GabeKnight » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:16 am

terminator wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:18 am
Was it against "German Mines", maybe a Specialization bug ?
:lol: Yeah, could have been.
But, it's not important anymore. I'm just glad it works as it should now.
And again the postings deviated into unimportant details. Sorry, Spike, please carry on with your "tutorials". :)

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:36 am

GabeKnight wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:16 am
..Spike, please carry on with your "tutorials". :)
Thanks mate, but in fact perhaps "tutorials" is too strong a word as I'm still a relative newcomer to OOB myself, having notched up only less than a year playing it, so I think I should just call them "tests" as I learn from them myself just like everybody else and am open to correction..:)

I decided to start this SPAT thread to find out exactly which tracked / halftracked/ wheeled units provide AT support, as I've often sat down to play a scenario and found out quite by accident during play that certain units (mine or the AI's) are AT class.
For example this 20mm wheeled vehicle (top left pic) has dual AA / AT capability the only clue that it can be used to engage ground targets is that it has an elevation icon, but even then we still don't know if it will give AT support.

So I ran a test (right pic), and found that it does give AT support against that panzer which is attacking an infantry unit.
Apart from hands-on testing, another very useful way to see what units can do is to consult Mojko's Nav Tool (bottom)..:)

Image



Below: the Purchase screen is also a good way of checking out what units can do, but we can only do this with our own units because we're not able to peek at the AI units on their purchase screen-

Image
Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:05 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:56 am

Scrutinising Mojko's Nav Tool I was surprised at how many tracked/halftracked/wheeled units provide AT support, some of which I'd never have guessed were capable.
So for reference here's a listing of all the main nations units that provide AT support (i.e. they'll fire at enemy AFV's which are attacking a friendly unit which is adjacent to the AT unit) but with some we have to lower the gun from AA mode where necessary.

GERMAN TRACKED
Panzerjager 1
Marder I / II / III
Stug III F / F8 / G
Sturer Emil
Nashorn
Ferdinand
Elefant
Jagdpanzer IV 48
Jagdpanzer IV/70
Jagdpanzer 38 Hetzer
Jagdpanther
Jagdtiger
Wirbelwind
Ostwind
GERMAN HALFTRACKS- None
GERMAN WHEELED- none
(Special, these 4 Stugs are Artillery class and do not give AT support even if their gun is lowered-
Stug III B / D / E / H)

------------------------------

RUSSIAN TRACKED
SU-76
SU-76M
SU-85
SU-100
SU-122
RUSSIAN HALFTRACK- None
RUSSIAN WHEELED- None
--------------------------------------

BRITISH TRACKED-None
BRITISH HALFTRACK-None
BRITISH WHEELED
2 Pounder Portee
Oerlikon 20mm Portee
-----------------------------------

USA TRACKED
M10 Wolverine
M18 Hellcat
M36 Jackson
T85 MGMC
M19 GMC

USA HALFTRACK
M3 75mm GMC
M15 CGMC
M15A1 CGMC
M16 MGMC

USA WHEEL- None
-----------------------

ITALY TRACKED
Semovente da 47/32
Semovente da 75/46
Semovente da 90/53

ITALY HALFTRACK- None
ITALY WHEEL
Autocannone Blindato 90/53
Lancia 90/53
------------------------

JAPAN TRACKED
Type 1 Ho-Ni
Type 4 Ho-Ni
Type 3 Ho-Ni III
Type 5 Ho-Ru
Type 5 Na-To
Type 5 Ho-Ri
Type 1 20mm AT
Type 96 Ta-Se AT

JAPAN HALFTRACK- None
JAPAN WHEEL
Type 94 20mm AT
----------------------
FINLAND TRACKED
Landsverk II
FINLAND HALFTRACK- None
FINLAND WHEEL- None

(Footnote- the only glaring omission I can see is that the British Archer is not in OOB, it was the only heavy SPAT the Brits had, it was a slow mover but packed a helluva punch with its 17-pounder AT gun)
Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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