Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

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CoolDTA
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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by CoolDTA » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:53 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:56 am
(Footnote- the only glaring omission I can see is that the British Archer is not in OOB, it was the only SPAT the Brits had, it was a slow mover but packed a helluva punch with its 17-pounder AT gun)
Indeed and it was great in ambushes because of the unique design (gun faced rearward). Brits should also have M10 and their own variant with the 17pdr (Achilles). Perhaps also Deacon if you want to be more thorough.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:49 am

CoolDTA wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:53 pm
PoorOldSpike wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:56 am
....the British Archer...
Indeed and it was great in ambushes because of the unique design (gun faced rearward)..
Yes, and incidentally I'm not a big fan of SPAT's of any nation because their armour is usually thinner than tanks and they haven't got a turret, and some are open-topped, so give me a "proper" tank every time....:)
The Germans went in for SPAT's bigtime and I often wonder if it was a mistake and that they should have concentrated more on building proper tanks, perhaps they saw SPAT's as a cheap alternative.
Even the USA produced open-topped M10's and M36's "tank destroyers", beats me why they didn't opt for proper tanks instead, as they certainly had the massive industrial capacity to do it, unlike Germany.

CoolDTA
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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by CoolDTA » Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:40 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:49 am
Yes, and incidentally I'm not a big fan of SPAT's of any nation because their armour is usually thinner than tanks and they haven't got a turret, and some are open-topped, so give me a "proper" tank every time....:)
Well, they sure are not tanks but I'm glad in OoB they can support other units just like you have demonstrated so well in this thread. :) For the Germans SPATs (primarily StuGs of course) were more and more towards the end of the war a cheap substitute for real tanks. I'd say a good one in that, too. Yes, the US had the industrial capacity, but their armoured forces were small and obsolete in the beginning. Tank destroyers were meant to counter the massive German armour (à la Blitzkrieg) also after the front was penetrated. Towed ATGs are not much use when you have to redeploy quickly. Tanks on the other hand were supposed to be used in assaults. After the war tank destroyers were pretty much discarded though there are exceptions. Consider for example the Swedish S-tank (classified as an MBT, tho).

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by PoorOldSpike » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:44 am

CoolDTA wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:40 am
..For the Germans SPATs (primarily StuGs of course) were more and more towards the end of the war a cheap substitute for real tanks..
Yes and if any innocent newcomers have surfed into this thread from off the street, let me clarify that the terms "Self-propelled anti-tank", "assault gun" and "tank destroyers" are interchangeable to some extent depending on nationality, for example the German Marder family were simply anti-tank guns mounted on a tracked chassis with a light armour shield to give the crew some protection against small-arms and shell bursts and were used primarily from concealed ambush positions because if they tried to slug it out with tanks they'd come off worst.
But German assault guns (typically the Stugs) were much tougher hombres, more heavily armoured and therefore able to get right in there in the front line with the troops like the one below in Russia.
(The Americans called their M10's and M36's "tank destroyers".)
Interestingly, Guderian says on page 297 of Panzer Leader in his conference notes for 1943-
"Anti-tank defence will devolve more and more on the assault guns, since all our other anti-tank weapons are becoming increasingly less effective or are too expensive in terms of casualties sustained against the new enemy equipment "

Image
Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cutydt02
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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by cutydt02 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:46 am

look like you love SPAT so much.
i'm the only one who feel outcome damage of AT's support fire is a bit lower than direct fire ?

Horst
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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by Horst » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:56 am

The attack value of anti-tank units while defending itself and supporting allies is the same, but it can vary depending on which terrain the AT-support takes place, no matter on which terrain the anti-tank unit is originally placed.
Each terrain offers a combat modifier for the attacker and the defender on the hex.
E.g. forest has 0.65 for attacker and 0.8 for defender. If a tank attacks infantry in the forest then its inf-attack value is reduced to 65%. The defending infantry mech-attack value is only modified by 80%. If there is a supporting anti-tank unit behind the infantry then its mech-attack value is also modified by 80%.
The AT-unit basically shares the same defender hex during this combat. There is also no ambush bonus for supporting AT-units if they were hidden. Ambush bonuses only apply for the originally ambushing unit that an enemy one rumbles into.
Unfortunate ambush situation: a tank rumbles into a hidden sniper with AT-unit behind. The sniper has no mech-attack, so there is no combat with AT-support.

GabeKnight
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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by GabeKnight » Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:40 am

Horst wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:56 am
Unfortunate ambush situation: a tank rumbles into a hidden sniper with AT-unit behind. The sniper has no mech-attack, so there is no combat with AT-support.
You still sure about your statement with the new version? I've tried to test this and found out two troublesome issues:

1) The AI seems to be able to see and attack sniper units (with the "camouflage" trait!) with tanks now
2) If the snipers are backed up with AT, they actually do serious damage to the enemy tanks

I've attached my test scenario. Just let it run without moving your units.
(Or correct me if I've done something wrong)

Screenshot 1005.jpg
Screenshot 1005.jpg (718.48 KiB) Viewed 418 times
Attachments
SniperTest.rar
(313.68 KiB) Downloaded 13 times

Horst
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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by Horst » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:12 am

Switch the faction sides and play as US. Then you see that your tank gets harmlessly stopped by snipers. Your aggression setting of 100 has forced the AI to attack afterwards what isn't immediately noticeable by the fast AI execution.

GabeKnight
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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by GabeKnight » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:56 am

Oh, yes. Thanks for clearing that up, Horst. As always, four eyes are definitely better than two... :wink:
Switched the snipers for Saharianas and there you go...BAM! 8) :lol:
I'm glad, so everything's okay. Good, good.

Horst
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Re: Self-propelled anti-tank units (SPAT)

Post by Horst » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:07 pm

Yep, if units lack a proper attack, like trucks, versus the surprised unit then no support is possible.

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