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Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:14 am
by WarHomer
kondi754 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:08 pm
Red Army campaign part 1:
1. Dubno/Lutsk/Brody battle June 1941
2. Smolensk (Yelnya) July/August 1941
3. Moscow defense October/November 1941
4. Moscow offensive December 1941
5. Rzhev/Demyansk/Kholm early 1942 (it would be a really huge map :!: :wink: )
6. Timoshenko's Kharkov offensive May 1942
7. Voronezh June/July 1942
8. Caucasus August/September 1942
9. Stalingrad defense September/November 1942
10. Uranus operation November 1942
11. Manstein's counterattack/Little Saturn December 1942
12. Race for Rostow/Don offensive January 1943
13. Gallop/Star operation January/February 1943
14. Kharkov (third battle) February/March 1943
15. Kursk defensive phase July 1943 ???

In my opinion, it is probably a complete list of the most important battles of the Red Army from 1941- mid 43
I think that such a campaign should assume huge losses of equipment and infantry units on the player's side.
However, before some scn (eg 4.6 or 10), the player should receive a considerable injection of funds to rebuild their forces in full - in accordance with historical truth.
In conclusion - large losses and constant rebuilding of strength
What do you think?
All massive battles would be tiresome and repetitious, so we need some smaller ones in between and lots of diversity in missions.

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:33 pm
by kondi754
So you didn't like German GC - Blitzkrieg, Panzerkrieg and Endsieg?
Here, every scenario was a big operation, so you were bored with it I suppose :twisted:
I understand that Sandstorm is more suited to you, with these mini-scenarios, for example naval convoy battle or air attack on Allied trucks?

For me, it's cheating a buyer who spends his hard-earned money on full-fledged battles in an operational scale, but he gets some rushed strategic mini-games :P

Besides, if you want to create this campaign this way you will need at least 4 or 5 parts to finally reach Berlin...

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:18 pm
by LNDavoust
Sandstorm is my favourite DLC and yes, one of the reason is that we have a lot of diversity and marvelous air/navy/land scenarios like Herkules :)

The problem with a soviet DLC would be if there is room for that kind of variety...

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:57 am
by uzbek2012
Do you plan to introduce new unusual units ?
http://union.4bb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=971&p=22

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:06 am
by TripleCP
Kondi's list covers the most significant campaigns, has a sort of geographic continuity, and I personally would have no problem at all if that exact list was announced. That said, I think it unlikely. There's a good chance the scenarios which are ultimately selected may jump around a little to include the naval aspects as well as to ensure that the player could not plausibly alter history by preventing or reversing some of the Red Army's early defeats along the central front. With that in mind, the evacuation of Tallinn, defense of Leningrad, defense & evacuation of Odessa, Kerch Peninsula amphibious landings, defense of Sevastopol, etc. are some possibilities.

I would not mind if the first DLC (assuming two) goes all the way through Kursk because the Red Army's string of offensives during the period between Kursk and Berlin is often rushed through in both popular histories and wargames alike. However, OoB likes to overturn the player's successes through events beyond their control (somehow going from capturing Moscow to defending Rzhev between Blitzkrieg and Panzerkrieg and from victory at Kursk to the Soviets seizing the initiative all along the front between Panzerkrieg and Endsieg). With that in mind, I can see the first Red Army DLC ending with the Red Army following up victory at Stalingrad with the capture of Rostov (effectively blocking Army Group A's retreat from the Caucasus) while the second could still begin with containing the Wehrmacht's gains following the Third Battle of Kharkov in Feb-March 1943.

Many of the Red Army's officers and soldiers that were encircled in the debacles of 1941/42 either became partisans or made it back to their lines, so maybe there ought to be a way for cut off units to form partisan groups or disband and reconstitute with less of a penalty in terms of lost experience.

The "Unreliable" trait ought to be brought back in all its infamy and applied to many if not all of the Red Army's summer 1941 tank units. The Soviet tank force was formidable on paper but many units were woefully understrength when the Germans crossed the border and often lost more or equal numbers of tanks to mechanical failure and breakdowns in the opening weeks of the war as they did to German ground & air attack. Soviet tanks from the 1930s were often entrenched hull-down as stationary pillboxes and bunkers because their engines were not in working condition.

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:01 am
by bebro
One thing to bear in mind: we cannot use "unreliable" for all those Soviet tank models that make the bulk of the enemy forces in previous content (Blitz, PK, ES, even MS) -- this would make those DLCs suddenly a total pushover.

But any DLC so far had unit _additions_ though, which leaves the door open....so to speak.

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:32 am
by Erik2
A Partisan specialisation would be nice, with a random/low chance of destroyed Soviet units being replaced by partisans. These partisan units would probably have to be assigned to a specific partisan AI team with search and destroy order probably targeting artillery and other 'weak defense' units.

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:38 pm
by GUNDOBALDO08
bebro wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:01 am
One thing to bear in mind: we cannot use "unreliable" for all those Soviet tank models that make the bulk of the enemy forces in previous content (Blitz, PK, ES, even MS) -- this would make those DLCs suddenly a total pushover.

But any DLC so far had unit _additions_ though, which leaves the door open....so to speak.
Bebro all of us just know a lot about next dlc, so you can officially announce it and give us some screeshot and other info... what about it?

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:03 pm
by bebro
I'm not making any announcements, so I have to ask for a bit more patience :)

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:58 pm
by GabeKnight
I've been following most of the "unreliable" discussions, and although there were many points mentioned that would confirm a general lack of reliability of the engines used during the time, please don't overuse it. This is just my opinion, but one or two units per nation's roster should get it at the maximum!

This trait's annoying enough as it is:
Like a fifty-fifty chance to lose 20% of the unit's efficiency by moving or attacking? In the worst case my unit loses 40% efficiency during one attack. Ridiculous. :evil:

How about a new trait instead, that has a chance of reducing the movement points? For example, I'm ordering my unit to move four hexes and this trait causes my unit to stop after two...

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:25 pm
by kondi754
GabeKnight wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:58 pm
I've been following most of the "unreliable" discussions, and although there were many points mentioned that would confirm a general lack of reliability of the engines used during the time, please don't overuse it. This is just my opinion, but one or two units per nation's roster should get it at the maximum!

This trait's annoying enough as it is:
Like a fifty-fifty chance to lose 20% of the unit's efficiency by moving or attacking? In the worst case my unit loses 40% efficiency during one attack. Ridiculous. :evil:

How about a new trait instead, that has a chance of reducing the movement points? For example, I'm ordering my unit to move four hexes and this trait causes my unit to stop after two...
Gabe, this is not about the reliability of engines only, but the whole drive system - gearbox, transmission, suspension, tracks, etc.
Did you know that the Panther tank moved off the road at a speed of 13 km/h?
Or that the Soviet armored corps in 1941 and 1942 lost even 80-90% of vehicles due to the failure of the drive system during a 200km march towards the front line?
Do you want to have a nice PzC style game or a unique operational simulator? :wink:
After all, you may delete this trait from the unit.csv file if it bothers you but a milder/different version of this trait is ok for me, but without removing the one which we have now, of course

BTW, I have 3 proposals for unique specs for the Red Army:
- Maskirovka
- Deep Operation concept
- Borzoj Tactics
If anyone is interested, I can explain what's going on :wink:

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:23 am
by cutydt02
kondi754 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:25 pm
GabeKnight wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:58 pm
I've been following most of the "unreliable" discussions, and although there were many points mentioned that would confirm a general lack of reliability of the engines used during the time, please don't overuse it. This is just my opinion, but one or two units per nation's roster should get it at the maximum!

This trait's annoying enough as it is:
Like a fifty-fifty chance to lose 20% of the unit's efficiency by moving or attacking? In the worst case my unit loses 40% efficiency during one attack. Ridiculous. :evil:

How about a new trait instead, that has a chance of reducing the movement points? For example, I'm ordering my unit to move four hexes and this trait causes my unit to stop after two...
Gabe, this is not about the reliability of engines only, but the whole drive system - gearbox, transmission, suspension, tracks, etc.
Did you know that the Panther tank moved off the road at a speed of 13 km/h?
Or that the Soviet armored corps in 1941 and 1942 lost even 80-90% of vehicles due to the failure of the drive system during a 200km march towards the front line?
Do you want to have a nice PzC style game or a unique operational simulator? :wink:
After all, you may delete this trait from the unit.csv file if it bothers you but a milder/different version of this trait is ok for me, but without removing the one which we have now, of course

BTW, I have 3 proposals for unique specs for the Red Army:
- Maskirovka
- Deep Operation concept
- Borzoj Tactics
If anyone is interested, I can explain what's going on :wink:
Interesting, can you explain now ? I dont know about the first and last spec

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:19 am
by GUNDOBALDO08
Any announcement in honor of 75th DDay anniversary?? 😉

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:49 pm
by kondi754
cutydt02 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:23 am
kondi754 wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:25 pm
GabeKnight wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:58 pm
I've been following most of the "unreliable" discussions, and although there were many points mentioned that would confirm a general lack of reliability of the engines used during the time, please don't overuse it. This is just my opinion, but one or two units per nation's roster should get it at the maximum!

This trait's annoying enough as it is:
Like a fifty-fifty chance to lose 20% of the unit's efficiency by moving or attacking? In the worst case my unit loses 40% efficiency during one attack. Ridiculous. :evil:

How about a new trait instead, that has a chance of reducing the movement points? For example, I'm ordering my unit to move four hexes and this trait causes my unit to stop after two...
Gabe, this is not about the reliability of engines only, but the whole drive system - gearbox, transmission, suspension, tracks, etc.
Did you know that the Panther tank moved off the road at a speed of 13 km/h?
Or that the Soviet armored corps in 1941 and 1942 lost even 80-90% of vehicles due to the failure of the drive system during a 200km march towards the front line?
Do you want to have a nice PzC style game or a unique operational simulator? :wink:
After all, you may delete this trait from the unit.csv file if it bothers you but a milder/different version of this trait is ok for me, but without removing the one which we have now, of course

BTW, I have 3 proposals for unique specs for the Red Army:
- Maskirovka
- Deep Operation concept
- Borzoj Tactics
If anyone is interested, I can explain what's going on :wink:
Interesting, can you explain now ? I dont know about the first and last spec

Deep Operation - armored, self-propelled and motorized units for several turns (like paratroopers) don't feel the effects of cutting off the supply lines plus the player receives 1 unit of long-range reconnaissance, which has characteristics similar to Marine Raiders (price: 20 SPs)
The concept of "deep operation" developed before the war by Trandafilov and Isserson (supported by Marshal Tukhachevsky), which Stavka tried to use during the war since Uranus op. to Berlin
Maskirovka - enemy units experience the effects of reduced efficiency throughout the first (few) turns of each scenario (price: 15 SPs)
Maskirovka is the art of disinformation and camouflage, superbly mastered by the Soviets, used before the large offensives 1942-45, used eg. before the op. Uranus, the Battle of the Dnieper (200km transfer of the 3rd guards armored army from the Bukryne bridgehead to the north), before the start of the op. Bagration in Belarus, etc.
Borzoj tactics - If 3 units of the T-34 tanks are on hexes adjacent to the hex, where the Tiger, Tiger II or Panther units are located - the German unit has a reduced "Defense against mechanized" factor by 2 points (price: 10 SPs)
Tactics used on the battlefield by T-34 crews in clashes with Tigers and Panthers (1944-45), 2-4 vehicles served as a bait, the rest (6-8) circled the opponent and attacked at once from behind and from all sides. Borzoi was a race of dog used for hunting wolves and bears in Siberia (a dozen or so dogs hunt in a group)

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:01 pm
by cutydt02
Deep Operation so broken bro, nearly ignore supply mechanic. That cost (20) is high enough if SP gained as low as japanese campaigns (3-4 per scenario, while german campaign easy gets more than 5)
Maskirovka's unique, but it intercedes to efficiency mechanic directly, which may causes some trouble like Panzerkeil or Advanced Aeronautics for a while. Additionally, this spec shouldnt work in Defence mission or artilleries will be god of war again

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:53 pm
by kondi754
cutydt02 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:01 pm
Deep Operation so broken bro, nearly ignore supply mechanic. That cost (20) is high enough if SP gained as low as japanese campaigns (3-4 per scenario, while german campaign easy gets more than 5)
Maskirovka's unique, but it intercedes to efficiency mechanic directly, which may causes some trouble like Panzerkeil or Advanced Aeronautics for a while. Additionally, this spec shouldnt work in Defence mission or artilleries will be god of war again
Deep operation - if its price is too low, it can be increased, maybe 30-35 SPs?
Soviet T-34s from 1943 were extremely mobile vehicles, during the offensive the leading tank brigades made 50-60km raids deep into the opponent's operational space, and then (if they recognized strong defense in a given direction) they often returned WITHOUT PROBLEMS to their corps
To sum up, situation they were far from their lines didn't matter to them as for Panzerwaffe in 1941-42
Maskirovka - this specs should be available since November 1942 (Uranus) and would be available only during offensive scenarios (when Soviets moves first :wink: , it's possible to make it in the game I suppose), this lowered efficiency state would affect a maximum of the first 2-3 rounds (maybe even first turn only ???) and would somewhat resemble the Red Army during the first few rounds of Minsk 1941 scn, remember?

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:33 pm
by Igor1941
kondi754 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:53 pm
cutydt02 wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:01 pm
Deep Operation so broken bro, nearly ignore supply mechanic. That cost (20) is high enough if SP gained as low as japanese campaigns (3-4 per scenario, while german campaign easy gets more than 5)
Maskirovka's unique, but it intercedes to efficiency mechanic directly, which may causes some trouble like Panzerkeil or Advanced Aeronautics for a while. Additionally, this spec shouldnt work in Defence mission or artilleries will be god of war again
Deep operation - if its price is too low, it can be increased, maybe 30-35 SPs?
Soviet T-34s from 1943 were extremely mobile vehicles, during the offensive the leading tank brigades made 50-60km raids deep into the opponent's operational space, and then (if they recognized strong defense in a given direction) they often returned WITHOUT PROBLEMS to their corps
To sum up, situation they were far from their lines didn't matter to them as for Panzerwaffe in 1941-42
Maskirovka - this specs should be available since November 1942 (Uranus) and would be available only during offensive scenarios (when Soviets moves first :wink: , it's possible to make it in the game I suppose), this lowered efficiency state would affect a maximum of the first 2-3 rounds (maybe even first turn only ???) and would somewhat resemble the Red Army during the first few rounds of Minsk 1941 scn, remember?
Mobility ended like this ... this is Ukraine 1944 spring Image

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:34 pm
by kondi754
This is IS-2 (or properly IS-122) heavy tank, not T-34
Immobilized by Tiger or Nashorn at Chotymyr, western Ukraine 30 April 1944 then transported to the Reich and subjected to tests (hence the inscription "OKW" made with white paint on the turret)

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:39 pm
by Horst
While playing Sandstorm in the last scenarios, I've noticed how utterly useless my single Tiger H was, being constantly below 5 efficiency. My other Panzer 4's did a much better job meanwhile.
I don't mind the 50% chance to trigger that effect but 1 eff-point loss is really enough.

Re: Next DLC?

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:48 pm
by kondi754
Horst wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:39 pm
While playing Sandstorm in the last scenarios, I've noticed how utterly useless my single Tiger H was, being constantly below 5 efficiency. My other Panzer 4's did a much better job meanwhile.
I don't mind the 50% chance to trigger that effect but 1 eff-point loss is really enough.
Because Pz IV was a real Panzerwaffe workhorse :D
Tigers and Panthers were good in PR (both during the war and after the war), but the real work for the Wehrmacht (and the Waffen SS) was done by the "panzer fours" - the silent hero of this war 8)