Does simulating history matter in OOB?

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krakoburger
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Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by krakoburger » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:00 pm

I grew up on board war games and after college also played miniatures. One of the pleasures was playing games that simulated varying levels of command, from company sized in games such as Squad Leader, to entire fronts as in Panzergruppe Guderian. Among other things, scale of units, scale of hex and time all mattered. As much as I am enjoying OOB - I've played completely through Winter War, several scenarios of US Marines, and now working my way through the PanzerBlitz campaign, I find I am missing these elements. In Winter War, one of the scenarios was for a battle in which only several hundred combatants fought on each side, and in others, it's difficult to realized the difference in scale between Soviet divisions and Finnish combat groups. The Norway scenario in Panzerblitz has the whole country and the scale of the armies is impossible to determine within the game itself nor how quickly the Germans took over the country.

The board games I played offered different levels of victory and defeat, here it is all or nothing.

I think the games would be improved by providing more information to the player.
Just my thoughts.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:19 am

My wargaming experience mirrors yours (boards, miniatures and computers over the past 40 years) and I agree with you up to a point, but the FUN and enjoyment factor of OOB is so amazingly high that I tend to overlook any of its non-historical aspects..:)
For example, you can regard unit size as being whatever you want it to be, (platoon,company,battallion,regiment etc) depending on the scale of the battle.
However if you were to twist my arm and demand some criticism, I'd say that I wish there was a cap on some units strength factor.
For example the default unit strength is '10', regardless of whether it's a small combat group of a few men or a whole company.
So it'd certainly be more realistic if small groups strengths were capped at a maximum of say '3' or '4' strength to reflect the smaller number of men in it.

As for the other point you raised about different levels of victory in OOB, there are usually a couple of 'Primary' objectives and a few 'Secondary' objectives in each scenario; so you have the choice of which ones you want to go for, for example you could just go for the Primaries, but if you want to make it tougher on yourself you could decide to go for (gulp) all the Prims AND Secs..:)

PS- Here's a nostalgic circa 1980 pic for boardgame buffs, me (on the right) and one of my opponents Gaz Newton in my boards days with some of the titles we played...:)-

Image

bebro
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by bebro » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:21 pm

In OOB, like in PanzerCorps or SSI's games the scale is flexible, because otherwise it would not be possible to depict a large variety of battles in a satisfying way.

Imagine a bigger invasion scenario like DDay or a hypothetical Sea Lion - then compare it to something like Tarawa or Iwo Jima. If the former have a reasonably sized map, say around 40-40 hexes, Tarawa would have to be like a one hex map to stay roughly in a similar scale, which of course makes such a scenario unfeasible.

Map sizes do have an impact on turn numbers, unit numbers etc. So for everything to be in the same scale, you'd have to change the game into something completely different, or simply drop a whole lot of iconic battles when they're out of the scale you set as the one and all important one.

But whatever approach you take, you'd find that each one comes with specific pros and cons.

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:49 pm

bebro wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:21 pm
In OOB, like in PanzerCorps or SSI's games the scale is flexible, because otherwise it would not be possible to depict a large variety of battles in a satisfying way...
Yes, for example I'm toying with the idea of creating an OOB 'Operation Barbarossa' scenario stretching from Poland to Leningrad/Moscow/Stalingrad, but keeping the map relatively small and having only a low number of units, and regarding the units as Corps-sized to give a fast-moving game that can be played in just an hour or two..:)

krakoburger
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by krakoburger » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:51 pm

This is my opinion, and it won't stop me from playing - as has been stated, the game is fun - but adding the information doesn't mean changing the game. But consider this, the Someri scenario of the Winter War campaign, involved less than 2000 troops on the island but the supply rules remained the same as for the largest battles, but this is not realistic. Over the course of a couple of days, which is how long this skirmish probably took, a company sized unit can go without resupply and also would not have time to receive replacements, though from what I read on Wikipedia, some reinforcements were landed. I don't know where to go with this, but I think that letting the player know this enhances the perspective.

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:06 am

krakoburger wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:51 pm
....the Someri scenario of the Winter War campaign, involved less than 2000 troops on the island but the supply rules remained the same as for the largest battles, but this is not realistic..
Incidentally Someri is one of my favourite OOB scenarios, smallish and fast moving as our small Finnish garrison on the island has to fend off multiple Russian seaborne landings at multiple points all around the coastline, and the supply lines of both sides are being repeatedly cut and re-established during the battle, a real nailbiter with victory or defeat balanced on a knife edge..:)
Here's the island at the start, you deploy your Finns anywhere you like on it, note there are supply bases everywhere, you can afford to lose some but not all. When I first played it I thought "It's bloody impossible for me to win", and I lost, but was so hooked that in subsequent attempts I manage to win most of the time.
Image

Oops sorry was I ranting?- my point is that Someri (like most other OOB scens) is such off-the-scale FUN that I honestly don't really care much about historical accuracy.
So I'd say to all history buffs- regard the scens only as "semi-historical" and see if that makes them a little more palatable to you..:)

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by terminator » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:54 am

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:49 pm
Yes, for example I'm toying with the idea of creating an OOB 'Operation Barbarossa' scenario stretching from Poland to Leningrad/Moscow/Stalingrad, but keeping the map relatively small and having only a low number of units, and regarding the units as Corps-sized to give a fast-moving game that can be played in just an hour or two..:)
It would be interesting to make a more "strategic mod" by reducing the movement points and the range of the guns of the units in OoB WWII as Strategic Command WWII: World at War :idea:

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by R_TEAM » Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:27 pm

Yea - this is one of the things i dislike on OOB ....
The game "aiming" on more hardcore strategic players .... but fail with the scale on many "inbuild" scenarios - and even more on downloadable ...
I say not, it cant be fun - but only if you dont overthink to many things ... (why can on an 10km hex field only fight an tank unit and not an inf unit .... ?? -- and so one ...)
It can be fun, specialy if you play with more casual gamers where anyway dont think over this things ....

For more "serious" wargaming i would advice the new (2.x) Campaign Series from matrix ...
OOB have gone the more serious way to - but not with the idea, an game mechanic where fit in 1km hex fields work the same in 100m or 20km hex fields (the same is going for the unit size -> battalion/division/corps...)

Regards

bru888
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by bru888 » Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:26 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:06 am
. . . my point is that Someri (like most other OOB scens) is such off-the-scale FUN that I honestly don't really care much about historical accuracy.
So I'd say to all history buffs- regard the scens only as "semi-historical" and see if that makes them a little more palatable to you..:)
I have come here a couple of times and felt the need to comment but couldn't find the words to express my opinion. Spike did it for me. The point is, I would not have even known about the Battle of Someri if not for OOB and I have spent quite a lot of enjoyable time over at Wikipedia looking things up and learning. Simulating that battle, albeit loosely, stimulated my historical interest in it.

The fact that this game can portray Someri as an islet, or a continent, is a tribute to its flexibility of scope. It is for this reason that unit counters do not show size designations. If I am told that Someri was a minor battle on a small island, I have no trouble envisioning platoons and companies. If I am told that Someri was a major engagement, I look upon the counters and see divisions and corps.

In the final analysis, this is a game and developers, be they official or amateur, are charged with making it fun to play. My favorite reference in this type of discussion is the ludicrous driving a jeep around Oahu to wake up AA guns and fighters in order to save at least one battleship in Pearl Harbor from destruction. Obviously, that is not historically accurate but it is very ingenious and a great deal of fun. Much more fun, I am sure, than watching a grim reenactment of the actual event. And yet, does the Pearl Harbor scenario adhere in general to history? It sure does; you must drive like heck to save just one battleship. :)
- Bru

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:47 pm

Regarding our own personal approach to OOB, my favourite way is to build my own short sharp scenarios with the editor..:)
I own all the DLC's and have played all the dozens of scens at least once, but only about 10 (like Someri) really grab me enough to want to play them over and over again.
The rest are usually much too big and slow-moving for my taste.
As for Campaigns, I've halfheartedly dabbled, but none of them grab me at all, too big, too slow.

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by R_TEAM » Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:09 pm

bru888 wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:26 pm
.......
The fact that this game can portray Someri as an islet, or a continent, is a tribute to its flexibility of scope. It is for this reason that unit counters do not show size designations. If I am told that Someri was a minor battle on a small island, I have no trouble envisioning platoons and companies. If I am told that Someri was a major engagement, I look upon the counters and see divisions and corps.
.......
"I" would have with this an "big" problem ....
As in reality - an PzKw 1 platton or even companie is possible .... (and here the values maybe fit nice ..)
But an division or corps with "only" PzKw 1 have never existed - and so it musst have way different values (an division where have PzKw 1 was an mix with support/infantery/art/logistic and (finaly) PzKw 1 platoons , in reality .. foreseen from full different supply and movement behavor at platoon level/scale and corps level/scale ..)

Regards

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by terminator » Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:45 pm

R_TEAM wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:27 pm
Yea - this is one of the things i dislike on OOB ....
The game "aiming" on more hardcore strategic players .... but fail with the scale on many "inbuild" scenarios - and even more on downloadable ...
I say not, it cant be fun - but only if you dont overthink to many things ... (why can on an 10km hex field only fight an tank unit and not an inf unit .... ?? -- and so one ...)
It can be fun, specialy if you play with more casual gamers where anyway dont think over this things ....

For more "serious" wargaming i would advice the new (2.x) Campaign Series from matrix ...
OOB have gone the more serious way to - but not with the idea, an game mechanic where fit in 1km hex fields work the same in 100m or 20km hex fields (the same is going for the unit size -> battalion/division/corps...)

Regards
Matrix Games - John Tiller's Campaign Series is not a game on the same scale as OoB WWII.
For example, it is possible to put several units in the same hexagon :

s318_campaign_shot-014.jpg
s318_campaign_shot-014.jpg (125.41 KiB) Viewed 1106 times

We cannot compare these two games for this reason.

PS: According to the range of artillery in OoB, the scale of play in OoB is a little larger than Panzercorps.

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by R_TEAM » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:30 pm

terminator wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:45 pm
......
Matrix Games - John Tiller's Campaign Series is not a game on the same scale as OoB WWII.
For example, it is possible to put several units in the same hexagon :


s318_campaign_shot-014.jpg


We cannot compare these two games for this reason.

PS: According to the range of artillery in OoB, the scale of play in OoB is a little larger than Panzercorps.
I have not say it is the same scale (but here we musst first "define" where the "initial" scale of OOB real iss ............)
Campaign Series is 250m Hex scale with Platoon sized units (and your image is the old version .. the v2.x looks nicer ;) )
Here the discuss is imho only over the inconsistence of the scale in OOB ....
One scenario an Tank unit represent an Tiger tank platoon - in the other an division (unknow naming, as i wrote, it was no "Tiger" division as example ..)
The underground game mechanic with attack values/range/line_of_sight and finaly the supply machanic works only "halfway realistic" in an range from scale x > X - and not from any size to any size of scale ....
This dont say it make not "Fun" to play an "way out of Scale" scenario - but i doubt that hardcore strategic fans are happy with unrealistic outcomes in an battle where no game machanic was build for this scale, so it is then more to play an action 3D game with nice explosions and cool looking units - and please dont say the game mechanic would fitt "all" scales - this is simply nonsens ...

PS: the hint with CampaignSeries was as refference for historical very accurat War Gaming ....

Regards

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by R_TEAM » Sun Apr 28, 2019 4:44 pm

hc_002.jpg
hc_002.jpg (924.75 KiB) Viewed 1085 times
The actual v2.01 CampaignSeries Middle East

And i dont prefer CampaignSeries over OOB - as it was say - both are totaly different Scales ....
But if the OOB scenarios more an action fighting and not an mostly accurat simulation of an war (or part of an War) - then the whole point of an expansive game like OOB is obsolete - i have no problem to pay more for an "not mainstream" game .... but if the outcome is to "unproffesionell" for serious wargaming, then i musst switch to other titles ...
I
Regards

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by Andy2012 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:58 am

Whoa, that stuff looks like it was distributed via shareware and floppy discs. Nice. How do you actually run this on a modern machine?

terminator
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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by terminator » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:32 am

Andy2012 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:58 am
Whoa, that stuff looks like it was distributed via shareware and floppy discs. Nice. How do you actually run this on a modern machine?
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/582 ... .1948-1985

CSME_logo.jpg.png
CSME_logo.jpg.png (959.24 KiB) Viewed 1056 times

Campaign Series: East Front 1939-1941 (WIP):

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.as ... age=1&key=

30AF47CBFE3742D9BC12D23ADDE9FC81.jpg
30AF47CBFE3742D9BC12D23ADDE9FC81.jpg (532.79 KiB) Viewed 1056 times

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by GabeKnight » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:42 am

Personally, I'm really glad games don't look like this anymore. Nostalgia's nice, but outdated. :mrgreen: :wink:

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by R_TEAM » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:22 pm

Would i prefer an nice 3D gfx with full variable sight hight and angle ... yes (but this have even OoB not - and it is 3D ..................................... )
But as an fan of "realistic" war simulating - i prefer the game with more realism "over" nice GFX .... if i need only an action game where i can make non realistic fights with little tanks , to say "i am an WW2 hero" ..... then GFX is more important , here you are right ...
But the player base for realistic (and as an result, Complex) War games is only small - and so the budget of game development is low .. sad but true

No question that CampignSeries (even in the 2.x version) look outdated .... but it is for Bord-War-Gaming Fans , and player where relism is important, in the Scale (250mHEX/Platoon Unit Size) still the Refference ....

But imho we derail from the OP topic way to much :P

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by bru888 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:21 pm

GabeKnight wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:42 am
Personally, I'm really glad games don't look like this anymore. Nostalgia's nice, but outdated. :mrgreen: :wink:
I don't know about this. I used to love JTCS and this is obviously an update and expansion of that. If so, and it gets off the ground, I may find my grognard time and attention . . . divided. :wink:
- Bru

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Re: Does simulating history matter in OOB?

Post by R_TEAM » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:55 pm

bru888 wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:21 pm
GabeKnight wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:42 am
Personally, I'm really glad games don't look like this anymore. Nostalgia's nice, but outdated. :mrgreen: :wink:
I don't know about this. I used to love JTCS and this is obviously an update and expansion of that. If so, and it gets off the ground, I may find my grognard time and attention . . . divided. :wink:
ATM only "Middle East" is available - next will be Vietnam ....
Then (IMHO in this order) East Front - West Front - Pacific Front .....
It is only a small team - so dont expext one relase all Year ....

Regards

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