Using Artillery and Subs

Order of Battle is a series of operational WW2 games starting with the Pacific War and then on to Europe!

Moderators: Order of Battle Moderators, The Artistocrats

Post Reply
JustJeff88
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:45 am

Using Artillery and Subs

Post by JustJeff88 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:52 pm

So, my question is in the title... how are artillery and subs best used in this game? I dabble in a lot of turn-based tactics games such as Advance Wars, Panzer General Forever, Panzer Corps, OoB, Panzer Strategy and Strategic Mind Pacific, and every one has different rules of course, but the one variance I tend to see most is in Art and Subs. I really struggle to use those well in OoB, so I'm asking how best to do so, how to interpret stats, how to complement them with other units and so on.

Thank you in advance

PoorOldSpike
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 904
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by PoorOldSpike » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:14 am

Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf called artillery "The 10-mile snipers" which sums them up nicely, they can sit well behind the front line and stomp anything within range.
"I do not have to tell you who won the war, the artillery did"-Gen George Patton
"Artillery is the god of war"- Josef Stalin

"Ubique means that warnin’ grunt the perished linesman knows,
When o’er ’is strung an’ sufferin’ front the shrapnel sprays ’is foes;
An’ as their firin’ dies away the ’usky whisper runs
From lips that ’ave n’t drunk all day: “The Guns! Thank Gawd, the Guns!”- from Kipling's poem 'Ubique'

"Never fear to use insanely overwhelming artillery saturation bombardments, let the fear be your enemies"- Poor Old Spike

Image

cutydt02
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Senior Corporal - Destroyer
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:04 am

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by cutydt02 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:53 am

subs're useless at all, no one in this forum succeed in finding how to use them as i remember
artilleries're completely rule the game, especially the K17 with superior range. The mobile and small one's useful too. Hit everything without retaliation, good damage enough and most important is morale damage.

bebro
The Artistocrats
The Artistocrats
Posts: 2933
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:50 pm

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by bebro » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:57 am

Arty is good for reducing efficiency of enemy units - this is IMO most important in OOB esp. since it weakens enemy attacks abnd allows your own inf/tanks etc to destroy those enemy units more easily.

Bigger calibers are usually better at this, but of course they cost more. If you are in a longer campaign that starts early in the war small/medium caliber do often quite well initially, since early units have usually lower defense stats. Late war units have usually better stats so having bigger guns then makes sense.

PoorOldSpike
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 904
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by PoorOldSpike » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:44 pm

JustJeff88 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:52 pm
So, my question is in the title... how are artillery and subs best used in this game?..
I'm not a sub expert so can't help you there, but with artillery the tactic is ultra-simple, you just move them into range of the enemy and let fly.
BUT remember towed guns can't fire in the same turn they move, so ALWAYS try to buy self-propelled artillery if you can afford them, because they can move and fire in the same turn which makes them twice as deadly.
Also, SPA's give the crew some armoured protection against air attack and counter-battery fire, whereas towed crews are naked and defenceless, especially if their soft tow truck is hit while moving.
In short, towed guns will waste valuable time having to be towed around and unlimbered, especially in mobile battles.

Brit 155mm towed gun, Italy 1944
Image


German Hummel 150mm SPA in Russia
Image
http://www.mission4today.com/index.php? ... orum&f=134

Kolaris
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:02 pm

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by Kolaris » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:26 pm

I don't know exactly how efficiency calculations is done, but I'd be willing to bet each point lost is worth more than the one before it. So going from 5 > 4 is twice the loss that 10 > 9 is.

This would explain why I felt artillery was useless when I started playing. I came in with a Panzer Corps mindset, where you really only have time for one turn of bombardment before you have to assault. One artillery unit bombarding for one turn really isn't going to get anything done. But in OOB you have more turns to work with, and typically artillery has greater range which allows you to concentrate shots from multiple guns on a single target. That's where artillery starts to become effective imo.

JustJeff88
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:45 am

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by JustJeff88 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:04 am

Thank you for the replies. While indirect attack units in, say, AW just do HP damage, I assumed that artillery in this game had to attack some kind of "org" stat that wasn't the exact same thing as health, I just wasn't sure what to look for.

As for subs, I am disappointed both in that nobody seems to have any Sage Advice and they don't seem to very good. I assumed that they were designed to be very hard to use but, if done properly, were devastating. Doesn't appear to the be the case.

Kolaris
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:02 pm

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by Kolaris » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:23 am

The Gabe Mod on the first page of the scenario design subforum makes some slight tweaks to many unit stats...and an enormous buff for subs, which might say something about their state.

GabeKnight
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2348
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:24 pm

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by GabeKnight » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:44 pm

At the moment, vanilla subs have no real punch and are rather a nuisance; a harassment unit at best. Like partisans or recon vehicles behind enemy lines. Did not seem right to me, thus the changes in my mod.

Maybe I should've increased the costs as well?

Mojko
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:04 am

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by Mojko » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:42 pm

The problem with subs is that they cost too much CPs for what they can do. They are slow and attack rate is abysmal. I would rather have two destroyers than three subs. Ground recons have a similar problem as well, but much less so.

I already asked about lowering the CPs cost of subs, ground recon, some very light artillery pieces and very light AT guns to 1, but the offical response is that it's very difficult to balance as you could mass lot of these weak units. Did anyone try this approach in their mods?
Author and maintainer of Unit Navigator Tool for Order Of Battle (http://mfendek.byethost16.com/)

PoorOldSpike
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 904
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by PoorOldSpike » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:48 pm

I'm running sub tests and will post the results later, but at the moment I'm trying to figger out what that 3-hex radius white line marker around the submerged sub is for, does anybody know?
(The submerged subs periscope spotting range is only 2 hexes and its spotted that jap transport ship).
The deck guns radius is only 1 hex range, and as the sub is submerged the gun couldn't fire anyway.
US torpedo range is 2 hexes.
So what's the 3-hex radius marker for?

Image
Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kolaris
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Senior Corporal - Ju 87G
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:02 pm

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by Kolaris » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:36 am

I confess I don't know for sure, but I always assumed it was to let you know Destroyers in that radius will detect you with Sonar.

bebro
The Artistocrats
The Artistocrats
Posts: 2933
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:50 pm

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by bebro » Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:53 am

It's most useful when you click the sub before moving, then you get the possible hexes to move on (like with any other unit), but most importantly it shows over what distance you stay submerged (if you are at start).

Pls. see pic - surface move is 3, submerged only 2 - so if you move full 3 hexes the you auto-surface (that's what the icons at the outer edge symbolize). Move only 2 to avoid that.
Attachments
Sub_move.jpg
Sub_move.jpg (730.11 KiB) Viewed 983 times

PoorOldSpike
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Captain - Heavy Cruiser
Posts: 904
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Plymouth, England

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:29 pm

Thanks Bebro, I've decided to do some sub warfare tests and will create a separate thread later..:)

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by bru888 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:29 pm

GabeMod on top, vanilla on the bottom.

I see here how you reduced the cooldown time:

Image0055.jpg
Image0055.jpg (348.08 KiB) Viewed 915 times

and how you raised damage values per your changelog "All subs receive a +5 torp attack, -1 turn cooldown and additional +4 torp attack when submerged" (meaning the attack values when submerged are raised a total of +9).

Which seems like a lot, frankly. It is fine and dandy when you are on the administering end but I can remember some scenarios in which being on the receiving end of enemy sub attacks was a major PITA. Hence I hesitate to adopt your measures.

A question, though. Why did you remove the ranges here? Presumably, these are for the deck gun which is not available when submerged, of course. Did you notice aberrational behavior or did you remove these values for the sake of good housekeeping? Again, GabeMod on top, vanilla on the bottom:

Image0054.jpg
Image0054.jpg (364.19 KiB) Viewed 915 times
- Bru

3156Regt
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:56 pm

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by 3156Regt » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:54 pm

Having just recently discovered Order of Battle (OOB), I am getting used to the different (vs PanzerCorps/PzC) use of artillery and the related use of close air support! A long-term "Panzer General" grognard myself, not having my artillery auto-support adjacent units took some getting used to, but I find this, like most game mechanics in OOB, to be an improved and more nuanced process than in PzC!

To siege an entrenched target with artillery, I find it useful have each artillery unit fire as soon as it reaches a good position in range, followed by any ground units' attack to take advantage of target's reduced entrenchment and efficiency and hopefully displace the enemy from the position. On subsequent turns and just in general,
(1) Hit the target first with all artillery and air in range; especially with those units that do the most Shock (efficiency reduction) and Assault (entrenchment reduction) damage. The ability to hit the same target with multiple arty/air attacks on the same turn is just devastating. Then,
(2) Follow up with ground unit attacks. In the ground unit sequence I generally try to attack first with Hvy Inf mortars (if the target is still really entrenched and losses would be high), then Engineers to further reduce that entrenchment, then Hvy Inf direct fire, then other Infantry. If your ground unit forces the target unit from its position and you have another unit available, you may want to not advance that first unit and instead attack through with a second ground unit to get that immediate follow-on (and usually decisive) attack against the shattered and now un-entrenched enemy unit! If you have just a handful of artillery/air and ground units, no enemy unit should be able to hold out for more than a turn or two under this type of siege, unless there are some additional factors like a very defensible terrain position or supporting enemy artillery - in that case you'd probably want to dedicate some of your artillery or air assets to reducing that enemy artillery.

As you move your artillery units towards the next objective, try to alternate their movement so they get a chance to "cool down" and recover efficiency lost during their last attacks.

I will be watching this thread to learn the best way to use subs.

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by bru888 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:08 pm

It sounds like you already have more of a handle on the proper use of artillery and engineers than many more experienced players around here. It took me a long time to grasp (well, not "grasp" in that it's not rocket science, but "pay attention to") the key aspects of efficiency and entrenchment in this game.
- Bru

3156Regt
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Private First Class - Wehrmacht Inf
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:56 pm

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by 3156Regt » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:06 pm

Thanks! Yet still, sometimes I get over-eager and forget to follow my own advice, then meekly fire the artillery after the infantry has already attacked... :|

GabeKnight
Major-General - Tiger I
Major-General - Tiger I
Posts: 2348
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:24 pm

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by GabeKnight » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:58 pm

bru888 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:29 pm
Which seems like a lot, frankly. It is fine and dandy when you are on the administering end but I can remember some scenarios in which being on the receiving end of enemy sub attacks was a major PITA. Hence I hesitate to adopt your measures.
Sure, all basic changes I've done to units in my mod are available to all factions, that means, of course, that the AI can use them, too. E.g. my ships being bombarded by enemy arty (like the KV-2 :wink: ) as well as the sub torpedo attack increase.
BTW, the +4 when submerged equals roughly to +1 HP damage on the target, IIRC.

But I did not change any of the defense stats, making the subs a very fragile target once detected - similar to commando units. It's always a trade-off to use them as "forward" units: if you're lucky they remain undetected and can do some serious damage behind enemy lines over time - but if the AI detects them, they usually get hunted down and destroyed completely.

But you may be right overall that the subs are a bit overpowered in my mod compared to their cost in RP and/or CP. I may tone them down a bit in the next major update.

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:48 pm
So what's the 3-hex radius marker for?
...and...
bru888 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:29 pm
A question, though. Why did you remove the ranges here? Presumably, these are for the deck gun which is not available when submerged, of course. Did you notice aberrational behavior or did you remove these values for the sake of good housekeeping?
I have no idea what bebro meant with his "explanation" in the post above, but this range entry for the subs makes no sense to me in any way. You can see the movement range with the subs as with any other unit - no need for an additional "marker". The torpedos have their own range marker, too. I've considered this entry in the units file to be some remnant (or "vestigial" :wink:) copy&paste error and removed it.

Yeah, you could call it "for the sake of good housekeeping" :lol:

bru888
Order of Battle Moderator
Order of Battle Moderator
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: Using Artillery and Subs

Post by bru888 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:03 pm

By the way, I've been picking through your mod, picking up fixes and suggestions. You obviously put a ton of work into your mod. Thanks for it.
- Bru

Post Reply

Return to “Order of Battle Series”