Submarine Warfare

Order of Battle is a series of operational WW2 games starting with the Pacific War and then on to Europe!

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Horst
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by Horst » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:04 pm

bru888 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:57 pm
So, do you know if there is a torpedo_attack bonus as well?
Check this new info-topic: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 74&t=92311

bru888
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by bru888 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:44 pm

Thanks, Horst. Spike, you're off the hook.
- Bru

koopanique
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by koopanique » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:22 pm

prattaa wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:27 pm
What's missing is the chance of scoring a critical hit. It was a great feature of Pacific General back in the day. That would really make submarine and naval operations in general shine and add a needed bit of realism. I know OOB is not a Panzer General clone but sometimes a good idea is just a good idea.

pacgen.jpg
@prattaa, I love this idea as well. As the manual states, it adds flavor to the naval scenario. Having a small chance for a critical hit that actually affects the unit in different ways (less movement, no air operations, etc) makes the game that much more intense and/or interesting.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by PoorOldSpike » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:20 am

DESTROYER ON THE HUNT TESTS (vanilla 7.1.8 )


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Below: Using that island for reference, I placed a stationary AI US Balao sub 5 hexes south of it (circled)
I waited half a dozen turns to give the sub time to surface, then moved this jap Akizuki 43 destroyer to within 2 hexes of it-
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Below: On the next turn the destroyer pinged and located the surfaced sub at 2 hexes range (max sonar range) and can engage it with its guns (sometimes it takes two or more turns of pinging to locate the sub) So in addition to what the loading tip says about surfaced subs only being spottable at 1 hex range, they can ALSO be spotted by a destroyers sonar at 2 hexes range.
Reminder- we can either manually order destroyers to ping, or let them ping automatically, but in either case the destroyer must be stationary (that's realistic, as sonar performance is degraded by engine noise and rushing water)
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Below: Help me! Can anybody explain why this E13A1 'Jake' jap recon plane can't see the surfaced sub even though it's on top of it?
I withdrew the destroyer (without firing) so that the sub became unspotted and vanished from the map. But when I flew the plane to its position, it couldn't spot it even though it was still on the surface at that position. (I thought it might have have submerged but I waited a dozen turns to give it time to come up for air, but it never appeared at all, and when I brought the destroyer back to eyeball it, it was there on the surface smack underneath the plane)
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Below: Mitsubishi Ki-46 'Dinah' recon crewman in action
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http://www.mission4today.com/index.php? ... ic&t=14431

Horst
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by Horst » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:28 am

Look at the size of that thing!
Taking pictures from planes is truely more comfortable today. :lol:
Today.jpg
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PoorOldSpike
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:20 pm

Mystery solved, AIRCRAFT CANNOT SPOT SUBS even if they're surfaced!
Horst just told me this in the Scenario Design thread-

"Yeah, it’s sadly the truth that only adjacent ships and ground units can detect surfaced submarines. It’s tied to the undetectable trait each sub has which is also used by mines.."

This proves what I've always said- namely that hands-on up-to-the-minute tests are the best way of checking out units and gameplay etc because they cut clean through what might have been written in outdated manuals etc..:)

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by PoorOldSpike » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:46 pm

What's this? Sonar can't detect submerged subs???
Left pic- I placed my Jap destroyer in the middle of 5 AI US Balao submerged stationary subs, but after several turns of pinging none of them were detected!

Right pic- it was only after they surfaced that the destroyer was able to spot them!
I ran the test several more times to confirm it, and despite all the pinging, the submerged subs remained undetected, crazy!

Image

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:27 am

FINDING SUBMERGED SUBS
Okay, now that we've found out that submerged subs can't be detected by aircraft or sonar, the tests below show how we CAN detect them-

Below: The submerged Balao is in the circled hex and in the left pic I order the Akizuki 43 destroyer to steam over it without stopping, and it doesn't detect it (right pic)-
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Below: but this time I order the destroyer to sail directly into the subs hex and halt there (left pic), and as we can see in the right pic, it "bumps" the sub and stops dead without entering its hex, and is able to lob depth charges at it.
No sonar pinging took place, so presumably the destroyer crew could see the sub underneath them with their eyeballs, and/or they picked up the subs engine noise on their passive sonar because it was pointblank range.
Conclusion- to detect a submerged sub we must move the destroyer into (but not through) its hex to "bump it", but it's a big ocean so we'd need a big slice of luck to move into the subs exact hex by pure chance.
(Of course, if the sub makes an attack or has surfaced it'll be much easier to track down)
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Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:52 am

SURFACED SUBS, some spotting tests

1- The surfaced AI Balao is adjacent to a Jap town but the townsfolk can't detect it.
2- But if I deploy a jap unit in the town it detects the sub (but can't fire at it)
3- To find out if guns can engage subs, I placed the surfaced sub adjacent to these guns, they can see it but can't fire at it.
(Conclusion- don't sail subs adjacent to enemy coastlines in case they're spotted by a unit on the shore who'll radio its position to aircraft and destroyers.
Image


Below: in this test I placed a radar to see if it could detect a surfaced sub at 2-hex range, but no, it couldn't (pic 1). it could only see the sub when it was adjacent (pic 2)
That's realistic because subs silhouettes were so small and low in the water that they were notoriously difficult to see with radar and eyeballs-
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Below: Once a surfaced sub is detected by any method, any nearby aircraft can attack it as in this example,
1- the destroyer has sailed along the arrow and sees the sub and can attack it, and the Kate bomber can also join in the attack (pic 2)-
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terminator
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by terminator » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:55 am

If we delete the trait "undetectable" for the classe [SUBMARINE] from the file "classes.txt" and add this "undetectable" trait to all the submerged submarines in the file "units.csv" ?

Sub.JPG
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Horst
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by Horst » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:27 pm

Last time I checked, the undetectable trait only worked in the classes.txt file.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:36 pm

New test- THE BOMBARD ORDER HAS NO EFFECT ON SURFACED SUBS

1- I select the 'Bombard' icon (circled)
2- and get a choice of which hexes to clobber.
3- So I order the two guns to bombard the surfaced sub for multiple turns,
4- but the sub isn't even scratched, and its efficiency stays at 10.
(I suppose one of the penalties of Bombarding is reduced gun effectiveness which is fairly realistic, although it can hurt ground units)
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BOMBARDING DOESN'T SCRATCH SHIPS EITHER
as this test proved.
Using the 'Bombard' icon again,I bombarded these ships one by one for multiple turns in multiple tests but no damage or efficiency loss was caused-
Image
Last edited by PoorOldSpike on Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

PoorOldSpike
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:51 pm

Horst wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:27 pm
Last time I checked, the undetectable trait only worked in the classes.txt file.
terminator wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:55 am
If we delete the trait "undetectable" for the classe [SUBMARINE] from the file "classes.txt" and add this "undetectable" trait to all the submerged submarines in the file "units.csv" ?
Sadly guys I'm just a grunt wargamer and PC dummy, and am just as terrified of computers as I am of women, so messing with files and females is something I never dare try (sniffle)

Horst
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by Horst » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:56 pm

It's no surprise that the Bombard ability has no effect on naval targets as all land-based artillery units lack any attack value against these. No clue why this was designed that way. Only structures can do some damage against targets in the water.
Naval and air units are also not affected by shock attacks. Too bad, as I'd love to give the heavy AA guns some shock to reduce enemy bomber efficiency for a turn when hitting them.

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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by PoorOldSpike » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:49 pm

Horst wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:56 pm
..Only structures can do some damage against targets in the water..
Which structures?

Horst
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by Horst » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:11 pm

(Conrete) bunkers only vs small naval.
Fortress, coastal gun, sea-fort vs small and large naval.

GabeKnight
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by GabeKnight » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:33 pm

PoorOldSpike wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:27 am
FINDING SUBMERGED SUBS
Okay, now that we've found out that submerged subs can't be detected by aircraft or sonar, the tests below show how we CAN detect them-
Only submerged subs that did not move or attack can not be detected by sonar.
PoorOldSpike wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:36 pm
BOMBARDING DOESN'T SCRATCH SHIPS EITHER
as this test proved.
I bombarded the ships one by one for multiple turns in multiple tests but no damage or efficiency loss was caused-
Horst wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:56 pm
It's no surprise that the Bombard ability has no effect on naval targets as all land-based artillery units lack any attack value against these. No clue why this was designed that way. Only structures can do some damage against targets in the water.
Since when? I haven't tested this in a long time, but I'm absolutely sure that (at least in the v5.x version or so of OoB) arty bombardment DID damage ships. Slowly, but I've sunk/damaged many of those in the US/Jap campaigns - and no, of course I do not mean any modded units.

Horst
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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by Horst » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:48 am

My oldest backup is from v4.1.1 here where non-structure arty has no naval attack values either (yet). I wrote it didn't surprise me, so I have no clue either how this could actually work with bombard then due lack of proper values.
I haven't studied the bombard ability either yet what exactly the difference is. It's possibly the same mechanic like firing on naval radar-blips. Maybe someone else can test this more closely.

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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by GabeKnight » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:18 pm

Horst wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:48 am
My oldest backup is from v4.1.1 here where non-structure arty has no naval attack values either (yet). I wrote it didn't surprise me, so I have no clue either how this could actually work with bombard then due lack of proper values.
I haven't studied the bombard ability either yet what exactly the difference is. It's possibly the same mechanic like firing on naval radar-blips. Maybe someone else can test this more closely.
We're in agreement that arty units never had any naval attack stats as long as I'm playing this game. :)
That's why I had to use the "bombard" functionality. It must do some basic damage to all units, like zero-efficiency AA still being able to shoot down planes if support-firing.

And as far as I've observed the "firing on naval radar-blips" (i.e. ship-to-ship), there's no (or negligible) damage difference whether it's a radar-blip or inside LOS.

Thinking about it, isn't it the same mechanic as arty bombardment of land units? There's no (or negligible) damage difference whether you bombard an enemy land unit or fire on it with LOS.

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Re: Submarine Warfare

Post by Erik2 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:56 pm

I think you should not be able to fire at naval blimps at all. That would require much more sophisticated radar equipment.
Also, using the generic (land) bombardment of a hex should cause less damage than firing at a specific target.
I'm ok with artillery being able to fire at naval targets (especially fairly slow landing crafts), but at reduced effectiveness (moving targets).
There were some dual artillery that were used both for land and naval target, for instance the Japanese used several types at Betio.

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