'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

[PoorOldSpike]

The Unreliable trait renders a tank useless in this game, IMO, because it takes away a key attribute: mobility..

Yes, There was a thread here somewhere earlier this year about it, apparently the devs had reduced the effects of the trait in version 7.1.8 (good) but some people complained like crazy, so the devs have put it back to its old severe level in 8.1.0, grrrrr...
I stated my case at the time, I said that the trait should only be slapped on tanks that historically had a notorious reputation for breaking down, and that although tanks did break down in WW2, none had a really, really bad reputation for doing so.
I concluded by saying let the devs include the trait if they must, but please drastically reduce its effects, but I was overruled (sniffle).

PS- The trait also caught out another guy earlier this year, he posted something like- "What the hell?? My Shermans keep breaking down!! What kind of a crazy game is this??" We sympathised with him and pointed out that some of his Shermans had extra "sandbag armour" and the extra weight gave them the trait and made them prone to breakdown.

PS again- I'll make a list of all nationalities "Unreliable trait" vehs later and post it so we can avoid buying them..

[PoorOldSpike]

Okay these are the 'Unreliable trait' vehs in 810-

Russia- KV-1 m1940 and SU-76
Germany- Panther D and Tiger H
Japan- Type 4 Ke-Nu
USA- The 4 sandbagged Shermans
All other nations- None

Below: the 4 Shermans on the left are clean, and the 4 on the right have been given sandbags by clicking the 'shield' icon.
Bags improve armour but reduce speed and introduce the unreliable trait. You can bag up or remove the bags anytime during play.





Below: in this movement test of a bagged and unbagged Sher, we see that after a half-dozen turns the unreliable trait has turned the bagged machines efficiency a sickly blood red,
but the clean Sher is still bright and bushy-tailed.
To remove the bags click the 'revert' icon (circled)




http://www.mission4today.com/index.php? ... orum&f=134

[GabeKnight]

Has anybody gone with the KV-2? That one is expensive as heck and slower than molasses.

Yep. I've got two of them. Experience (at Moscow): One 5-star and one 3-star. Those are the only things able to do some damage to the German tanks without losing half its HP in the process...
Speed? Who cares, the Soviets aren't doing any Blitzkrieg as far as I know...

Also I've kept one (or two) T-28C's until the end. Best tank vs. infantry.

[bru888]

PS again- I'll make a list of all nationalities "Unreliable trait" vehs later and post it so we can avoid buying them..

Thanks, I may find that handy since I keep toying with the idea of eliminating that trait altogether from my units.csv because I happen to agree with you. It makes the vehicles in question quite useless and to be avoided, thereby posing the question of why have those units in the game in any case?

Has anybody gone with the KV-2? That one is expensive as heck and slower than molasses.

Yep. I've got two of them. Experience (at Moscow): One 5-star and one 3-star. Those are the only things able to do some damage to the German tanks without losing half its HP in the process...
Speed? Who cares, the Soviets aren't doing any Blitzkrieg as far as I know...

Also I've kept one (or two) T-28C's until the end. Best tank vs. infantry.

I might save up for one myself . . . [rubs hands together in expected delight] . . .

EDIT: Meanwhile, I just noticed that while the KV-1 m1940 has the Unreliable trait, the KV-1 m1941 does not. However, this new KV-1 costs more than the T-34 m1941 but it is not as strong offensively against enemy armor (nearly the same against infantry). However again, this KV-1 must have thicker armor because it has significantly higher defense values than the T-34. Heh, how the heck do you choose?

[GabeKnight]

Heh, how the heck do you choose?

Depends on your preferred playstyle, I guess. Especially when playing on higher difficulties, you don't want no fresh 12-HP enemy unit to catch one of your units with low strength (and/or efficiency). Those encounters always end catastophic for your unit. Thus my first choice are higher def stats.

If needed, you can back up the KV2 with an AT unit, too; to boost its mech attack values. You can't compare them with the destructive power of the German tanks, of course - still, they're very effective IMO.

When playing against the Wehrmacht, I've used the KV2 as an effective roadblock during the "defending" first part of the scens, and then as a strong supporting unit when attacking back in the latter phase.

[PoorOldSpike]

Meanwhile, I just noticed that while the KV-1 m1940 has the Unreliable trait, the KV-1 m1941 does not..

Yeah that's what I pointed out in an earlier post, sorry if I didn't make it clear.
Below in this clearer list are the only 9 units in OOB that have got the unreliable trait-

Russia- KV-1 m1940 and SU-76. (note the KV-1 m1941 and the SU-76M don't have the trait)
Germany- Panther D and Tiger H (note all the other models of Panth and Tig don't have the trait)
Japan- Type 4 Ke-Nu
USA- The 4 sandbagged Shermans (note Shers without bags don't have the trait)

[PoorOldSpike]

For interest's sake here are the MAIN CONTENDERS for OOB glory in the first 12 months of Barbarossa (v 8.1.0)

[PoorOldSpike]

GERMAN TANK GUN POWER (8.1.0)

I compiled this chart to help me see at a glance the differences between most German tanks in the first 12 months of Barbarossa,
most were active in 1941 and some were introduced in 1942-

75mm long
Pz IV F2- v vehs 16 / v inf 15

50mm long
Pz III L- 13 / 12
Pz III M- 13 / 12
Pz III J/1- 13 / 12

50mm short
Pz III J- 11 / 12
Pz III H- 11 / 12
Pz III G- 11 / 12

37mm
Pz III F- 9/ 11
Pz III E- 9 / 11

75mm short
Pz IV F1- 7 / 17
Pz IV E- 7 / 17
Pz IV D- 7 / 17
Pz IV C- 7 / 16
Pz III N- 7 / 17

[CoolDTA]

The PzIIIL (long 50mm gun) is the best tank the Germans can field in 1941

No, it is the PzIII J. Ausf. L is available in June 1942. Of course the designer can put whatever he wants in a scen (Rostov and Moscow have J/1s which also cannot be bought by the player in 1941).

Heh, the image Spike posted reveals again how putrid the efile in OoB is. No wonder users make their own. The most glaring mistake is to give Unreliable to KV-1/40 but not to KV-2. So you have the same chassis etc. Then you add a huge bulky turret and tons of additional weight. Voilà - it is no longer unreliable. Gotta love the "logic". Of course that's not the only mistake, but I don't really care anymore. I'm just sad.

[PoorOldSpike]

The PzIIIL (long 50mm gun) is the best tank the Germans can field in 1941

No, it is the PzIII J. Ausf. L is available in June 1942.

There's no such thing as a PzIII J Ausf. L in OOB..

[CoolDTA]

The PzIIIL (long 50mm gun) is the best tank the Germans can field in 1941

No, it is the PzIII J. Ausf. L is available in June 1942.

There's no such thing as a PzIII J Ausf. L in OOB..

Nor anywhere else. Your point? Hmm..., maybe the following helps:

The period (.) is placed at the end of declarative sentences, statements thought to be complete and after many abbreviations.

As a sentence ender: Jane and Jack went to the market.
After an abbreviation: Her son, John Jones Jr., was born on Dec. 6, 2008.

[GabeKnight]

But you have to admit it's easy to get confused when reading it fast...
How about:

"No, it is the PzIII Ausf. J.
The PzIII Ausf. L is available in June 1942."

[PoorOldSpike]

But you have to admit it's easy to get confused when reading it fast...
How about:
"No, it is the PzIII Ausf. J.
The PzIII Ausf. L is available in June 1942."

Ah that's better, I've edited my former post accordingly..

[CoolDTA]

But you have to admit it's easy to get confused when reading it fast...

Yeah, that's true.

These quick-glance charts by Bru and Spike should prove useful to many players.

[PoorOldSpike]

These quick-glance charts by Bru and Spike should prove useful to many players.

I also learn a lot myself from our charts too, for example in the MAIN CONTENDERS chart I posted earlier, I see that the KV-2 is better than I thought, so I'll probably buy them more often in future.
Its gigantic 152mm gun is almost as good as the T-34's against armour, but its 'shock rating' against infantry is massive, and its armour is sensational.
Its only drawback is its slow speed but it can be used as a "roadblock" as GabeKnight suggested until it eventually gets knocked out like this one (wonder what the guy in the Kubel is saying to it?)..

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php? ... orum&f=134

[Andy2012]

Alright, I held Smolensk. See my deployment pattern below.
Generally, this works as almost all defensive missions in OoB (somebody has posted a resembling strategy already, I think it was CoolDTA...):

1. Assess the map, look for natural defense lines as rivers. There's one in the north, one northwest of Smolensk, one to the south and two spots in the south to hold. Crossings are important choke points.
2. Deploy your inf and AT. AT should reach hidden positions behind inf after turn 2. Makes great tank traps.
3. MVPs are once again 2 Bofors AA. Use them to weaken 109 fighters and protect the airfield near Smolensk.
4. T-34s are good for concentrated dashes as local counterattacks. Keep them in a group close. Repairs cost an arm and a leg, so dont overextend.
5. Retreat your aux units towards the main defensive position. Try to save as many as possible. Move backward aux units to the front ASAP.
6. Prioritise arty fire, those 203mm mortars are life-savers.
7. Knocking out tanks is important, but the true danger here is the hordes of high exp Wehrmacht inf
8. Dont spend on elite reinforcements for aux units and dont deploy bombers or get all CP deployed if you dont have to.

On to Yelnya.

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[bru888]

You know, I'm sad about Red Star and OOB in general for two reasons. One is, my lack of resources that began with Summa 40 caught up with me in Smolensk, so I resorted to cheating with #warbonds. That immediately took me out of the position of being able to honestly report my results here, so I have stopped. At about the same time, I "crossed the Rubicon" with the Unreliable trait (quoting my recent thread) and that does the same thing only in general. With that change, I am not playing the same game as the rest of you guys.

So I will not be posting Victory and Defeat notices in this type of thread any more because it will be like comparing apples and oranges. Still, I will stick with my decision about the Unreliable trait and I will cheat once in a while if I really don't feel like playing this or that scenario again. I just will not be publishing results because, who knows, maybe the whole thing did hinge upon having access to reliable vehicles that other players do not.

This doesn't mean that I will not insert a comment here or there in this type of thread and it certainly doesn't mean that I am not enjoying Red Star. Far from it.

[PoorOldSpike]

Just discovered this T-38 SWIMMER in Red Star, the little Russian beauty can cross rivers as if they're not there because it has the "swimmer" trait and can give jerry a nasty surprise because it can shoot up soft targets, AND can cut his supply lines. He hasn't got any swimmers of his own, haha..

[bru888]

Yes, I had noticed this and put it to the same purpose, or tried to. Also good is sometimes you can sneak a weak aux unit (not recon, of course) behind enemy lines and wreak havoc on their supply. They usually get caught eventually but sometimes it works.

[Andy2012]

Yelnya. Won in 11 turns. I think that the Guards Infantry upgrade is a nice idea, but with its current shape is unusable. To stay afloat, I mostly use regular reinforcements (except for fighters) and at most try to keep my tanks around 2-3 stars exp. Infantry never reaches that far in exp. What do you guys think about it?

Generally, this battle is about careful positioning and always assuming there is a hidden AT unit in a forest.
As you see, I brought my flame tanks for assaulting fortified positions.
1. Concentrate heavy arty, tanks, flame tanks, engineers and some infantry in the middle.
2. Dont neglect the side objectives. there will be some sparse counterattacks there. Leave the aux units there, dont try to flank Yelnya. It is tempting, but a frontal assault works well.
3. Advance methodically and carefully, take out AT with inf and arty. Let the upgraded T34s deal with the Stugs. Best flank them or cut them off.

Strangely, the 88AT near Yelnya mostly spent its time in AA mode.

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